Cyberganked guns

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Cyberganked guns

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

First up is the most common pistol in the game, the Beretta.

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I have it set for a clip size of 15, I have it set so that it can do a burst fire (which I don't think it can in real life, so I probably need to change that) and damage is between 20 and 35 hit points when it connects. It's worth is 500 bucks. This is all subject to change.
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Billy Mays
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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:13 pm First up is the most common pistol in the game, the Beretta.
While not uncommon, the most common pistol in the US is likely a glock.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:13 pmI have it set for a clip size of 15,
It's called a "magazine", not a "clip".

Here is a picture of a "clip"

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And here is a picture of a clip with ammo loaded into it:

Image

There are a number of ways they are used, but for the most part, the bullets are pushed into a magazine and then the metal clip is discarded. It makes for faster and easier loading of magazines.

15 rounds is a standard capacity magazine for a beretta 92 and most common.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:13 pmI have it set so that it can do a burst fire (which I don't think it can in real life, so I probably need to change that)
The 92, what I believe you have pictured, does not have a burst fire. One pull of the trigger, one bullet is fired.

The 93r has a burst fire option, it is a machine pistol and they are rarer than hens teeth in the entire world let alone the US, but it is a game so:


Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:13 pmand damage is between 20 and 35 hit points when it connects.


Damage is very subjective depending on a hundred different factors, shot placement being the most important one. You have to balance it for the game but keep in mind that most people survive getting shot by a handgun. I tried finding the Clint Smith video where he talks about the differences between different types of guns but I haven't been able to find it yet. It went something like "handguns put holes in people, rifles put holes through people, and shotguns rip off huge chunks of flesh that get thrown against the wall", that quote is very close to verbatim as Clint Smith is very poetic with his teaching.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:13 pmIt's worth is 500 bucks.
Almost twice that for a new one, 500 bucks may get you a very used surplus. They're overpriced and not that great of a pistol.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

Anyway we can move this to the troll room where I can edit my posts?

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

Sorry - I will make it so that you can edit your posts here.
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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

Billy Mays wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:40 pm It's called a "magazine", not a "clip".

Here is a picture of a "clip"

There are a number of ways they are used, but for the most part, the bullets are pushed into a magazine and then the metal clip is discarded. It makes for faster and easier loading of magazines.
I'm with you on the difference between them, I used to not be but then I decided to know the difference. However - can a magazine hold multiple clips? If it can hold one 15 round clip then a clip size of 15 is correct, right?
and then the metal clip is discarded.
Ah shit.
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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Flack »

99% of people incorrectly use the word clip when they mean magazine. In literally zillions of movies and television shows (I counted), characters say "clip" when they should say "magazine." Then the people that watch those zillions of movies and TV shows also call magazines "clips," which is understandable. This is perpetuated until they run into a gun owner who says "ac-tu-a-leeee..." and then corrects them. And once you start calling them magazines, get ready for people to have a puzzled look on their face before they ask, "do you mean clip?"

While not an official rule of thumb, if you can not see the bullets, it's probably a magazine. If you can see them, it's probably a clip.

My two cents, and take it or leave it, but at some point you have to decide if you are writing an adventure game or a gun simulator. As a player, I'd be fine with two choices, "handgun" and "rifle." If you want to add 10 different brands with different damage capabilities and firing distances and ac curacies that's certainly fine, I'm just not sure all the time invested really makes the game any better or worse from a player's standpoint.
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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:49 amI'm with you on the difference between them, I used to not be but then I decided to know the difference. However - can a magazine hold multiple clips? If it can hold one 15 round clip then a clip size of 15 is correct, right?
The too long, didn't read version: just don't ever use the word clip when referring to guns, whenever you want to use the word clip just use magazine instead.

Clips are made for rifles. They are made because soldiers from around the world shoot insane amounts of ammo in training and war so it makes a huge time save if they can load their magazines faster. With this in mind, clips are only made (generally speaking) for rifle rounds. They are packaged in groups of ten, and you need an adapter that slides onto the magazine that accepts the clip, the rounds are pushed down bypassing a tiny tab in the clip into the magazine, the clip is then removed from the adapter, you slide a new clip into the adapter and repeat the process until the magazine is full, and then the adapter and whatever clip is inside the adapter is removed and you go onto the next magazine. WW2 clips came in different capacity sizes than 10 because the rifles had internal magazines of different capacities. Clips were never made for pistol caliber rounds, and if they were it is so uncommon that you can just say they were never made for pistol caliber rounds. The only time a clip was inserted into the magazine was with the WW2 M1 Garand, the American service rifle, and they were ejected upon firing the last round making that garand "ding" you hear in movies and games. Fun fact: nobody ever heard the "ding" because everyone was completely deaf on both sides from all of the gunfire.

Therefor, magazines don't hold clips (except the garand), clips aren't made for handguns, and they commonly come in rifle calibers of 10 rounds. So saying a "clip size of 15" especially when referring to a handgun is wrong on all levels. Just use "magazine" and never "clip". A magazine capacity of 15 rounds is correct.
Flack wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:55 am but at some point you have to decide if you are writing an adventure game or a gun simulator...I'm just not sure all the time invested really makes the game any better or worse from a player's standpoint.
I largely agree with Flack on his post here. The 99% stat and the baffled by the word "magazine" I feel are wildly exaggerated, but the core of his argument is entirely correct. Gamers are pretty autistic, and the most autistic are RPG gamers. I feel you should have enough detail to make the game authentic, but not so much that it bogs you down or makes the game dry.

Bullets, rounds, cartridges are commonly used interchangeably and even serious gun guys tend not to care about the difference for example.

The other thing ICJ has at his advantage here is his ability to write creatively. If you got the basic terms down, then the rest of it can just be filled in with creative writing that would make the game so much more entertaining than listing off a bunch of stats and details. For example:

If a player picked up an uzi, like an actual uzi, which you could never actually just pick up but who cares because it's a video game, and they wanted to examine it then the text could read:

"Who care what it looks like, I just know that it makes me feel...powerful."

Which would be way better than a bunch of stats and terms. That description, a correct caliber (most commonly in 9mm), a correct magazine capacity (32 rounds is most common), and it goes rat tat tat when you pull the trigger. There's your uzi.

I think to simplify things, I can make as this progresses a list of 12 or so cardinal rules that if followed should give an authenticity to the game without it bogging down ICJ or the game?

The 12 or so rules
1. Never use the word clip, use magazine instead.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Tdarcos »

Flack wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:55 am 99% of people incorrectly use the word clip when they mean magazine.
A lot of people make mistakes in technical terms, especially when Hollywood perpetuates it. How do they shut down or destroy computers in movies and TV? Turn off the monitor or shoot the monitor. Forget the system unit, it has no significance.

Another example, when you want to point out something someone said, it is very common for people to say, "like you said..." or "like I said..." when the correct usage is "as you said..." or "as I said..."

As I said, the phrase "like I said" is incorrect usage. And I'm certain I've misused "clip" to refer to "magazine" myself. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find the error in Time clip, as well.
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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

You can abbreviate it to "mag" if you wanted.

The 12 or so rules
1. Never use the word clip. Use magazine(s) or mag(s) instead.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

Also, I still can't edit posts in this thread.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

Flack wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:55 am 99% of people incorrectly use the word clip when they mean magazine. In literally zillions of movies and television shows (I counted), characters say "clip" when they should say "magazine." Then the people that watch those zillions of movies and TV shows also call magazines "clips," which is understandable. This is perpetuated until they run into a gun owner who says "ac-tu-a-leeee..." and then corrects them. And once you start calling them magazines, get ready for people to have a puzzled look on their face before they ask, "do you mean clip?"

While not an official rule of thumb, if you can not see the bullets, it's probably a magazine. If you can see them, it's probably a clip.

My two cents, and take it or leave it, but at some point you have to decide if you are writing an adventure game or a gun simulator. As a player, I'd be fine with two choices, "handgun" and "rifle." If you want to add 10 different brands with different damage capabilities and firing distances and ac curacies that's certainly fine, I'm just not sure all the time invested really makes the game any better or worse from a player's standpoint.
Yeah, I agree with Flack on most all of this ICJ.

Wasteland is a good example with some variation but still simple. Assuming you will not have explosive weapons (RPG, bombs, etc) then I think in general..

1. Handgun 1: You have your Beretta. Not an expert on those, but I am pretty sure these shoot "45 cal bullets". More kick, bigger hole, more damage than 9mm.
2. Handgun 2: Something like a Walther P38 (I own an antique one I shoot fairly often) or a Ruger. Ruger is probably your best bet for familiarity. These shoot "9 mm bullets". Yes, using both cal and mm seems weird but with every American gun enthusiast I know; that is the terms they use. Less damage but ammo easier to find / cheaper.

3. Rifle: A "Mauser" style rifle that shoots "8 mm bullets". These use clips and bullets like pictured in Mays's post. Superior range (can shoot enemies in the back of a pack as accurate as in the front) and are much more deadly than either handgun. While they do use 8mm, it fires bullets so fast that they can penetrate wooden doors, some armors, etc and still kill the enemy on the other side.

- None of these have automatic fire. Handguns have semi automatic but with the rifle you must take an action to pull the bolt out to eject the spent shell and push it back in to move the next bullet into the firing chamber.
- I don't even like the idea of putting automatic weapons in the hands of the players unless perhaps there is 1, secret, hard as fuck to obtain one. People with accurate, expensive military-grade rifles or illegal automatic rifles tend to guard them to the very end, so you sure as shit would not find them just laying around. I like the idea of an enemy boss having an AK-47 or something though dealing multi hits per attack but not all connect.
- Bullets are called "cartridges" on boxes but no one in the US uses that term. Everyone says "ammo" or "bullets".
- Almost everyone I know says "clip" and not "magazine".

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

Oh and finally

4. Shotgun: This hits multi targets with one blast. Think Fireball spell from Wizardry. However, it cannot hit anyone except the first row of enemies, and the damage is spread like so:

Primary enemy (8-10 DMG)
Some enemy by him in same row (2-6 DMG)
Another enemy by him in same row (2-6 DMG)

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pm1. Handgun 1: You have your Beretta. Not an expert on those, but I am pretty sure these shoot "45 cal bullets". More kick, bigger hole, more damage than 9mm.
Beretta is a brand, the Beretta pictured is a Beretta 92 (or M9 in military lingo, some differences but basically the same gun). It is overwhelmingly chambered in 9mm. With some chambered in .40 and .45 but a Beretta 92 chambered in .45 is definitely an oddball and uncommon. I don't want to go into all of the autistic detail about it but basically a 9mm, despite being smaller, does just as much "damage" as a .45. The 9mm surpassed the 45 decades ago because since it is smaller you can carry more rounds in your magazines and it has less recoil which means follow up shots are easier.
Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pm2. Handgun 2: Something like a Walther P38 (I own an antique one I shoot fairly often) or a Ruger. Ruger is probably your best bet for familiarity. These shoot "9 mm bullets". Yes, using both cal and mm seems weird but with every American gun enthusiast I know; that is the terms they use. Less damage but ammo easier to find / cheaper.
Again, Ruger is a modern brand, they make every gun under the sun and in dozens of calibers. I think you meant "Luger", which while also a brand is associated with that one pistol the germans carried with them in ww2. Lugers are rare as hens teeth and a shit pistol, that is one of the reasons they lost the war, because a lot of their stuff was shit and gay. Movies depict their equipment as so awesome and high tech because they need to create a villain that is not a complete joke to roll over, but in reality most of their stuff was crap.

9mm and .45 do the same amount of damage. I can get into a long wind autistic lecture on why if you guys really want me to.

They are both two of the most common calibers you can find.

So, generally speaking, when you are talking about caliber you are talking about the diameter of the bullet, the actual lead projectile that leaves the barrel. In the US, we mostly use the Imperial system for measuring so a .45 caliber cartridge fires a bullet that is 45/100 of an inch in diameter. But we are also a member of NATO and Europeans use the metric system so a 9mm cartridge fires a bullet that is 9mm in diameter. The numbers are almost not exact, they round up or down a little bit when naming them. Also, sometimes there is an additional designation for the year it was introduced, the casing length, the inventor, or other data. The 9mm cartridge that is so common is actually called 9mm Luger since the Luger company either invented it or got credit and the full name is 9x19mm Luger since the brass casing is approximately 19mm long. Shotguns use gauge, the smaller the number, the wider the shell.
Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pmThese use clips and bullets like pictured in Mays's post. Superior range (can shoot enemies in the back of a pack as accurate as in the front) and are much more deadly than either handgun.
The clips don't get inserted into the rifle like they do in the garand. Can we just all agree to not use clips? Clips are basically not a thing, even the clips that are actually a thing you will probably never come across. They essentially never come in boxes of ammo you buy at the store even when buying military surplus. Can we please just get over the clips?
Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pmWhile they do use 8mm, it fires bullets so fast that they can penetrate wooden doors, some armors, etc and still kill the enemy on the other side.
Most rounds will fire through most things within reason and kill what is on the other side.
Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pm- I don't even like the idea of putting automatic weapons in the hands of the players unless perhaps there is 1, secret, hard as fuck to obtain one. People with accurate, expensive military-grade rifles or illegal automatic rifles tend to guard them to the very end, so you sure as shit would not find them just laying around.
Yes, this is true, but what the hell, it is a video game.
Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pmI like the idea of an enemy boss having an AK-47 or something though dealing multi hits per attack but not all connect.
Within the ranges that combat takes place in the game it is pretty easy to put all of your shots on target. To clarify, the same things that will make you miss with a machine gun are the same things that will make you miss with a semi-auto. You'll have some shot dispersion and some could miss as a result and it is a game so ok, but they are pretty easy to shoot. That being said, the hollywood depiction of sweeping a row of targets and hitting anything whatsoever is wildly false.

Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 pm- Almost everyone I know says "clip" and not "magazine".
I don't care, put clip in the game, I know you are going to put clip in the game and name everything clips and have clips be central thing that describes everything. I am done with the thread.
Jizaboz wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:40 pm 4. Shotgun: This hits multi targets with one blast. Think Fireball spell from Wizardry. However, it cannot hit anyone except the first row of enemies, and the damage is spread like so:

Primary enemy (8-10 DMG)
Some enemy by him in same row (2-6 DMG)
Another enemy by him in same row (2-6 DMG)
Shotguns don't spray out and hit multiple targets, they have a pattern based on type of load and choke among other things but they fire a controlled volley of projectiles at one target. At most home defense ranges, the shot pattern is one small hole.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

I mean.. you are arguing with someone who only shoots antique guns you would use in Wolfenstein unless his buddy hands him their sig 45 or one their modern rifles.

The floor is yours, Mays.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

Finally an excuse to post pictures of guns. Coming up...

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Billy Mays »

Jizaboz wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:28 amThe floor is yours, Mays.
Your shotgun idea was pretty good. Not realistic, but for a game it was really good. Maybe have shotguns act like fireball and rifles act like lighting bolt?

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

Billy Mays wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:37 am
Jizaboz wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:28 amThe floor is yours, Mays.
Your shotgun idea was pretty good. Not realistic, but for a game it was really good. Maybe have shotguns act like fireball and rifles act like lighting bolt?
Thanks! That is another thing I thought but didn’t say. I’m just trying to keep things simple and fun for icj without pissing off too many ocd nerds.

Just took some pics. Uploading soon.

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

My 1940s pistol

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

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Re: Cyberganked guns

Post by Jizaboz »

K-98 model ^

When the wood is removed, there are SS marks underneath. There is a lot of history on how this gun should not have even made it back to the states when it it did. At least 2 people have held and said something to the effect of “it feels cursed”.

I want to add some ww2 Japanese guns to my collection eventually. I just had a thing for collecting “enemy weapons” when I first got into guns.

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