Lex's Gaming Update

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by bruce » Sun Aug 18, 2002 7:12 pm

Lex wrote:Just completed Grim Fandango. This game rocks. I want more of the same. Maybe that Discworld Noir detective one that didn't do brilliantly; anyone know what it was called / where I can pick it up cheap?
It was called Discworld Noir, and I don't know where it can be found.

I enjoyed it. Very Discworldy, but not nearly as unfairly impossible as the two earlier ones.

Adam

by Ice Cream Jonsey » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:43 am

No, wait, I did install that Ultima 7 thing. I tried to run it at 800x600 resolution. It then threw my monitor into an out-of-synch range, so I had to reboot (after Alt-Tab didn't work).

So there was that.

by Ice Cream Jonsey » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:38 am

All right, I don't know about anybody else, but here's been my life for most of this summer:

6:30pm: get home
7:00pm: attempt to take a nap
8:00am: wake up

Maybe I have a parasite or something that has so cruelly robbed me of any energy once the sun starts to set. 13 hours of sleep each night is kind of overdoing it. I don't know. I want to game it, dammit! I want to experience these wares and talk about them with my friends!

But I've failed pretty badly at that.

by Protagonist X » Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:29 pm

Lex:

Thanks for the link! I downloaded it and, a scant 7 years after first purchasing it, was finally able to finish Day of the Tentacle. Under the BeOS, no less. And thay say there's no worthwhile games off the Win32 platform.

It was especially schweet to use the option for the advmame2x filter, thereby getting better graphics under emulation than in the real game the first time through.

I'm now looking to find a copy of Grim Fandango for a Tim Schafer trifecta. Then I can get started on those 4 monkey island games I hear so much about...

by Lex » Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:02 am

No, no no! I'm talking about SCUMMVR:

http://scummvm.sourceforge.net/

Scumm Revisited simply emulates the required inputs and outputs to allow these games to run: ScummVM actually reads the SCUMM script to output the game again. Still in early Alpha, but it works perfectly with Day Of The Tentacle. Apparently Sam 'n Max still has some problems: It uses a different form of iMuse than any other LucasArts game, which hasn't been accounted for: You have to rip the CD-music from the game to your hard drive, etc., to get it to run properly.

by Protagonist X » Tue Aug 06, 2002 1:06 pm

Dammit,. that was me up there as "Guest." Between this and the DBN thread, I'm wondering if I'll need to take a course in "remedial BBSing."
Lex wrote:I loved Full Throttle, but lost the disk before completing it (just got the goggles to get into their secret-hideout-thing).
If you need to borrow a copy, PM me and I'll just mail mine. What's the postage on a CD envelope to Scotland... three bucks? De nada.
Lex wrote:I wrote a huuuuuuuuuuuge amount (basically, designed an entire game) of stuff to put together in AGS when I was on holiday in France last year and there was nothing else to do. Unfortunatley, AGS wouldn't run on my laptop, so I never got round to actually implementing it.
Shame really.
Wow. I have to ask: what was the storyline?
Lex wrote:It's definetley something I would want to do.
I'm looking into it more and more myself... AGAST seems to be at a point where a really sweet product could be made. I'm still researching details on the engine, but it seems that a reasonably modern computer should be able to play an AGAST game at 1024x768 without choking. Have to do more homework on it.
Lex wrote:Seriously, IF is great, but I grew up with point-'n-clicks, my entire personality is a mixture of Ford Prefect, Sam 'n Max and Day of the Tentacle.
It is shocking, shocking I say, as to the ease with which I can believe this. That's a compliment, by the way.
Lex wrote:And Robb: YOU HAVE TO PLAY SAM N MAX RIGHT NOW!
You will have to install DOS 3.11, but it's worth it. Really. This is one of those games that you simply mustn't miss.
I'm trying to locate a copy of that now. I loved the comic strips, and the cartoon was better than most Saturday Morning fare when it came out. The Freelance Police seem to pop up everywhere -- while looking for more texts on animation, I saw them in a book on Flash, starring in a tutorial and nifty comic romp involving an alien autopsy.
Lex wrote:There is a program some out in internet-land that'll read the old SCUMM Scripts of these games and play 'em in Windows, so I'll try to find it.
It's called SCUMM Revisited, and I've got a link here somewhere... ah! scummrev.mixnmojo.com No, darn it, it's down right now. If mixnmojo doesn't go back online, let me know where I can post the zipped file -- It's a pitiful 395KB, but oh, the wonders it unlocks. There's all these rough sketches in FT that the designers left in, and you can rip the Gone Jackals Soundtrack and listen to the cuts in a mediaplayer. I'm told there's a whole room that was designed in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis that didn't make it into the final cut. Lotsa goodies for a designer to see how they put it together -- walk boxes, priority bands, and some guy out there has an alpha of a different utility to check out the animations of the actors, frame by frame.


Groovy.

by Guest » Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:25 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Oh, wow. I had no idea that there were other alternatives to AGS. I had similar reservations when it came to what I saw as a 800x600 limit to AGS.
Yeah, AGS strikes me as being similar to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, or Visual Basic: It's been around a while, and thus is better-established, a good number of end -user products have been made with it; yet it lacks a certain... 'elegance'... compared to younger systems that are less of a kludge.

{side note: for a film major, basically an art kinda guy, I've been hanging out with a LOT of Hard Science and Comp Sci people for a LONG time. Looking at what I wrote just now, I think more of it has rubbed off than I thought.}
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:(For posterity, here's what Google popped up with as the home page: <http://agast.dyndns.org/agast/home.html>)
That is indeed the home page where docs and downloads can be had. The "AGAST Community" seems to be centered on http://agastforums.mindfuze.com/index.ph, and the two developers of the AGAST system post there with such speed and regularity that I wonder if one of them has a shell script set up to notify him of any posts. Based on what I've read there, development of the engine proceeds apace at a nicely aggressive speed -- the 1.08g rev is due out Real Soon Now, and will apparently include the ability to play .avi and .mpg files for cutscenes. Among other things.

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:o Like: Conversation menus ala Manhunter: New York. This is a bias of mine as an author, because I only have worth when I have characters saying interesting things.
I've only played Manhunter: San Francisco, which had no dialogue whatsoever, but if you mean the menu-based style of your own games or the LucasArts canon, no arguments here. I think this is the main reason that the Sierra PCs are about as well-characterized as the PC from, say, Zork; where the LucasArts characters are memorable: solid, witty repartee. There's a reason why Porn won best NPC, and this is a good chunk of it.

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:o Like: A squared-off area for meta commands like save, load and quit. The Star Trek: Judgment Rites game and the ST game that came before it did it all through clicking on Kirk. Clever for its time (they had, what, 320x200 or 640x480 at best to work with) but kind of annoying otherwise. So more Maniac Mansion than ST:JR for me.
Personally, I like the solution of the later LucasArts games: map the F1 key to the Save/Load/Go Back to Playing/Quit menu. I don't use it that often when I play, and having a portion of the screen real estate set aside for the meta commands wastes valuable space that could be filled with tasty graphics and nutritious animation.

On that note, I prefer the interface from Full Throttle to that of Day of the Tentacle , and both of those to the original interface from Maniac Mansion or Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders . With MM and Zak, there's around 15 commands; with DOTT there's nine. It depends on the game, of course, but simplicity is usually better. FT gets the Gold Medal on a number of counts:

* It's not hardcoded to a strip at the bottom of the screen, see above rant on screen real estate.

*It has character. It's the tattoo/jacket logo of Ben's biker gang, the Polecats: A Skull over a gloved hand and a boot, with a banner below. When the mouse pointer (crosshairs) are over a hotspot, the crosshairs get a red box. Hold down the left mouse button, get the interface. Drag to the icon that you want and release: The eyes of the skull are "Look at/Examine," the mouth is "Talk to/Use Mouth," the gloved hand is "Pick up/Punch/Use," and the boot is "Kick." Right Button brings up the inventory screen. Cool, intuitive, and evocative.

* It's simple. Doesn't get in the way of the game, and the simplicity as well as the commands chosen are right in tune with the main character.

The non-text-parser Sierra games tried something like this (e.g. King's Quest 5) but put the icons in a bar across the top. This requires one to go to the top and get an icon when finding a hotspot, then go back down. Annoying over time. This icon-bar thing is the default for AGS, which seems biased to Sierra Style Games, where AGAST is more LucasArts-centered. Near as I can tell in my own addmitedly biased opinion.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:o Dis-like: Extremely wide camera shots, as seen in Star Trek: A Final Unity and Blade Runner. You're stuck as a designer if you get into that. There's nothing interesting going on while your character is a few pixels wide (due to the camera being so far back) and running from one end of the screen to the next. Actually, rarely running, even. That second or third mission to ST:AFU had me screaming down Picard for lolly-gagging his way through the fricken scenery, like he was going through a stroll through a gardenia.
Agreed, with reservations. There's two wide angle shots in FT that I didn't feel detracted from it. The wide shot can be used well to link some seperate locations that are a good deal apart in the game world. I'd say that the dislike of the wide shot comes from two things: if the PC lollygags, it interrupts the flow of the narrative, yes. And a wide shot (especially at low res) leads to the "Pixel Hunt" problem discussed earlier.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Is that the kind of thing you were looking for, PTX? I'll try to address some more thoughts along these lines tomorrow.
Oh, most definitely. Looking forward to it.

by Lex » Tue Aug 06, 2002 1:49 am

I loved Full Throttle, but lost the disk before completing it (just got the goggles to get into their secret-hideout-thing).

I wrote a huuuuuuuuuuuge amount (basically, designed an entire game) of stuff to put together in AGS when I was on holiday in France last year and there was nothing else to do. Unfortunatley, AGS wouldn't run on my laptop, so I never got round to actually implementing it.
Shame really.
It's definetley something I would want to do. Seriously, IF is great, but I grew up with point-'n-clicks, my entire personality is a mixture of Ford Prefect, Sam 'n Max and Day of the Tentacle.

And Robb: YOU HAVE TO PLAY SAM N MAX RIGHT NOW!
You will have to install DOS 3.11, but it's worth it. Really. This is one of those games that you simply mustn't miss. There is a program some out in internet-land that'll read the old SCUMM Scripts of these games and play 'em in Windows, so I'll try to find it. But, seriously, Sam 'n Max and DOTT are games you simply have to play. Redneck America is portrayed so disturbingly... Yet horribley true-to-life.
And I never got round to playing Manic Mansion past the opening, but I dare say DOTT is a great sequel as well as being one of the most fantastic comical romps in the history of video games.

Special Thanks:
George Lucas

by Ice Cream Jonsey » Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:35 am

Protag. X wrote:Scripting-engine-wise: I've browsed the sites for AGS and Sludge, and while they possess cute, Visual-Basic-esque IDEs, the one I'm taking the most interest in is AGAST. The engine design seems the cleanest based on its ability to display good-sized high-color resolutions and handle large numbers of sprites and variables. All to the good.
Oh, wow. I had no idea that there were other alternatives to AGS. I had similar reservations when it came to what I saw as a 800x600 limit to AGS.

(For posterity, here's what Google popped up with as the home page: <http://agast.dyndns.org/agast/home.html>)

Whta this all boils down to: I will be EXTREMELY interested in any comments on this sort of game. Post 'em here, jot 'em down in a PM to me, whatever. Any input at all will be treasured, nay, cherished. Which interface was best? What sort of a game would you like to play? PLEASE, PLEASE POST OFTEN AND AT LENGTH.
OK, this'll take me a little bit to distill into a useful form. I have spent a lot of time mentally categorizing interfaces in IF (which isn't impressive, as there are only a few of them out there) but I have never looked at adventure games that way... Off the top of my head, I like or dislike the following:

o Like: Conversation menus ala Manhunter: New York. This is a bias of mine as an author, because I only have worth when I have characters saying interesting things.

o Like: A squared-off area for meta commands like save, load and quit. The Star Trek: Judgment Rites game and the ST game that came before it did it all through clicking on Kirk. Clever for its time (they had, what, 320x200 or 640x480 at best to work with) but kind of annoying otherwise. So more Maniac Mansion than ST:JR for me.

o Dis-like: Extremely wide camera shots, as seen in Star Trek: A Final Unity and Blade Runner. You're stuck as a designer if you get into that. There's nothing interesting going on while your character is a few pixels wide (due to the camera being so far back) and running from one end of the screen to the next. Actually, rarely running, even. That second or third mission to ST:AFU had me screaming down Picard for lolly-gagging his way through the fricken scenery, like he was going through a stroll through a gardenia.

OK, in that mission, you admittedly had to go for a stroll through a gardenia, but they could have at least... at least done *something* to impart some sort of hurriedness to the PC's motions.

o Like: More Christopher Walken. Even when he was bad in Ripper, he was good. Ah, nevermind this one, I've officially gone through the list I had in my head.

Is that the kind of thing you were looking for, PTX? I'll try to address some more thoughts along these lines tomorrow.

by Roody_Yogurt » Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:55 pm

As far as Full Throttle goes (which, yes, is also a great game), I guess there's a sequel in development. Unfortunately, the guy who did Ben's voice is dead so who knows what it will sound like in the next game.

by Protagonist X » Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:36 pm

Damnable phpBB, logging me out!

It's me, the pseudonymous Protagonist X.

Oddly (perhaps serendipitously), I just finished (re-)playing Full Throttle, and loved so much about it that (1.) I'm cobbling together a review for the Trotting Krips, (2.) I found an old copy of Day of the Tentacle that I never got to play back on my 286, which I'm tearing into this very night, and (3.) I'm looking into authoring one.

Scripting-engine-wise: I've browsed the sites for AGS and Sludge, and while they possess cute, Visual-Basic-esque IDEs, the one I'm taking the most interest in is AGAST. The engine design seems the cleanest based on its ability to display good-sized high-color resolutions and handle large numbers of sprites and variables. All to the good.

The design of the scripting language itself is clean-looking, as well. Straightforward, simple stuff. This is a Very Gooth Thing from my perspective because (to paraphrase that philosopher of our times, Mr. Jack Straw) I HACK CODE LIKE OLD PEOPLE FUCK. I can screw up memory allocation on a Hello World. I find Java and Logo both overly complex and posessing higher math skills. If ICJ and Lex really do come up with the Apple-"Switch ads" parody I mentioned in the Hugo base (and I'd LOVE to see it made, guys) I would be happy to do one in a parody of 'Ellen Feiss' -- Check the Apple site and you'll get the gag.

One of the biggest reasons I've messed around with TADS but never put together a serious game is that I know that I can't put together the sort of meticulous Inform design that "Interstate 0" or "Galatea" presented -- love 'em or hate 'em, you can feel the painstaking effort that went into all that prose and the code to link it together.

But Lucasfilm-style games have animation. I can do animation -- I'm a film major who specialized in it for a few years, although I was never particularly good at it. But now I have a reason to apply myself: the homebrew out there in the LEC or Sierra mode are nowhere near as advanced as the marvels of the IF community.

There is room to impress. This pleases me greatly. Greatly enough to brush up on my atrophied life-drawing skills in anticipation of a decent walk cycle for the main character.

Whta this all boils down to: I will be EXTREMELY interested in any comments on this sort of game. Post 'em here, jot 'em down in a PM to me, whatever. Any input at all will be treasured, nay, cherished. Which interface was best? What sort of a game would you like to play? PLEASE, PLEASE POST OFTEN AND AT LENGTH.

Thanks, sorry I'm rambling as usual.

Protagonist X

(if you need an email address, I can be reached at zackbishop@aol.com -- The AOL email address was not my choice, it was a requirement of my workplace. I hate having to issue that disclaimer.)

Re: Lex's Gaming Update

by Ice Cream Jonsey » Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:31 am

Lex wrote: Grim Fandango
Sam 'n Max Hit The Road
Day of The Tentacle
I haven't finished, or even really begun any of those. But I think I own them all. I went on a Lucasarts buying spree a few years back, but never got round to installing all the games. So they sit on a shelf, unloved and unplayed.


Dammit.

by Roody_Yogurt » Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:07 am

I only got around to playing Grim Fandango myself a year or two ago. It's great because it's one of the best adventure games ever but it also makes me sort of nostalgic already because there will probably never be one as good as that again. I think I'll replay it one of these days.

by Lex » Mon Aug 05, 2002 10:01 am

Just completed Grim Fandango. This game rocks. I want more of the same. Maybe that Discworld Noir detective one that didn't do brilliantly; anyone know what it was called / where I can pick it up cheap?

Lex's Gaming Update

by Lex » Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:17 am

So over the last fortnight I've been blowing my Bursary on LucasArts Classics; games I missed the first time round but heard were great, or games that I grew up with but have dissapeared/become Legacy of the years.
So, in order, I have bought from Game over the last few weeks:

Grim Fandango
Escape from Monkey Island
Project Eden (not really LucasArts, but quite cool)
Sam 'n Max Hit The Road
Day of The Tentacle

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