You see? This is why we can't have nice things on here. Kent comes all the way from CANADA to tell us about an upcoming Hugo Manual and you all have to RUIN it.

Jones I can understand. He is the BBS wet blanket. Nobody listens to him anyway. And if "Ben" were still around I'd throw him in the same boat. But jc fan, I was with you UNTIL you went all "meta" on us. Now, you're just tiresome.

End this.. now! End this if you want there to be any chance that Kent or some of the other Hugoers will come back!


__Ex-Reader of jc fan's BILE

Don't let this "Ice Cream Jonesy" champion this thread's attempts to support the wonderful Hugo language, he is a gimmick playa-hater.

Don't let "jc fan" bring this thread to a screeching halt of nonsense, he is a gimmick poster.

I hope Kent didn't take my comments the 'wrong' way.
I've been following the development of Hugo for several years now, although I haven't contributed anything to it myself. (Except for a gleeful cackling session when I managed to insert my own name and game title in the Hugo shell and got it to compile. However, that's neither here nor there.)

The point is I'd really like to see Hugo 'succeed'. I think it's a great system, and vastly underrated. I totally appreciate all of Kent's work and dedication to it, and realize that writing a manual has got to be one of the most thankless, demoralizing tasks in existence. I do, however, think that the manual, or, more accurately, the lack of newbie-accessible documentation, has hurt Hugo and lost it potential users. If I were capable of writing a 'Beginner's Guide to Hugo' I would certainly do so, and I do hope to be able to contribute to the 'Hugo community' at some point.

I guess the bottom line here is that the manual is still pretty unfriendly to new users/non-programmers. I'm not sure what the answer is, in terms of correcting that deficiency, but like I said in an earlier post, I think the development of a game throughout would help. I remember a post of Robb's (somewhere, probably r.a.i.f) where he talked about being able to flip open the DM and see code on how to implement a ship's computer in Inform, and how motivating that was. I think that's the kind of thing that should be included in the Hugo manual.

Sorry Kent that you are having to deal with all of this.. i tried to explain that you were fed up having to deal with peoples requests and complaints and suggestions about Hugo and the manual but they became rude and hostile towards me..

Just wanted you to know I got your back even if these people do not..

-jc fan

Good points, and I'll keep them in mind. I've been debating how to handle the cold introduction aspect of the book--something I know it (still) doesn't do too well.

I too, am very happy to see an updated version of the Hugo manual.

My suggestion, is to include the development of a game a la 'Ruins' in the DM4, or as in the Inform Beginner's Guide.

I'm not quite sure why writers of programming manuals find it necessary to load up on all the programming fundamentals at the beginning of a book. As a newbie programmer, I would find it much more immediately enlightening to see an *explicitly-commented* source code, with explanatory notes following as necessary. Do I really need a list of compiler switches to start off with? No, in fact, I do not.

I do think this current rewrite is a huge improvement over the previous manual, but I still think it 'infodumps' too much technical information without presenting that information in a 'usable' way....again...include a game that builds upon itself in each section, and I think that'd go a long way towards improving immediate 'usability' to newbie programmers/Hugophiles.

Early thoughts (I got home late and will pass out momentarily):

o The bit about bold and italics showing up differently in MS-DOS is excellent. Actually, I am noticing details like this all over the manual which is great.

o There's a few "What we learned in this section" bits that aren't filled out yet, but I presume you know this (ditto the author's foreword).

o The examples of exactly what to type to compile a Hugo game is great, too. This is the kind of stuff that was omitted and used to drive me nuts when I was trying to learn a new language in college.

o The settings list! That's great that it's noted and listed.

o Bananas do indeed make a game more enjoyable, and it's about time a manual spoke to this in an authoritative manner.

Make sure if you do download it to print that the right-hand (odd-numbered pages) are exhibiting the right subsection in the header. I uploaded a version where everything (in Book I) said "APPENDIX A", but fixed it right quick.

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:(I will even buy it a sundae if it so desires!)

Hugo has teated me so well over the years, so congratulations, Hugo... tonight is your night out on the town!!

HA HA ICE CREEM JONESY YOU ARE A BIG FAGOIT JUST LIEK BRUEC!!1!

U WANT TO SLURP HUGOS R00T!!1!

FAGOIT!

Excellent! I am pumped that I caught this message while still at work. I am going to print it out and take it home with me tonight. It will ride next to me in the passenger's seat and I will let it set the radio station to whatever it likes. (I will even buy it a sundae if it so desires!)

Hugo has teated me so well over the years, so congratulations, Hugo... tonight is your night out on the town!!

(OK, that would actually sound a lot better if the name of the language was Hugella or something. But anyway.)

I'll give it a look over tonight (will I ever!) and post thoughts and comments ASAP.

I've been working on a new version of the Hugo Manual, with the primary intent of making it more readable to someone sitting down to work with Hugo instead of being primarily useful as a reference (and otherwise a little baffling to a first-time reader).

Any comments, particularly with regard to the structure of the book and how well it carries the reader through various topics, would be appreciated.

http://www.plover.net/~hugo/hugo_book.pdf