Braid Analysis (Spoiler-Filled!)

by **Worm** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:35 am

That ZP review is pretty horrible. No Yahtzee you are not the new punk rock. Also he doesn't understand why the second door was a red herring, what a laugh. Man, sometimes he's good, but he really needs to refocus these things. Which means, start reviewing bad games again and stop trying to pretend these things are insightful.

pinback wrote:No matter WHAT board the key was introduced on, it would still be the case that you're not introduced to it until then. Was it supposed to include a little tutorial bubble? "HINT: the key works just like everything else in this world, but since it is an inanimate object that you can carry, it will act differently from the goombas who are autonomic creatures!"

Yeah that's it Ben. If there was no lead up to it, then no lead up could have existed, since it's Braid and perfect.

Of course it should. How many green sparkly platforms in the game make YOU time immune just for standing on them? (Answer: all of them.)

The key doesn't glow green, Tim does. If the monsters were meant to function like the platforms then the key would be time immune after you TAKE IT from the monster, thus making the alternate solution the puzzle work. Also killing a monster would make you time immune if this was the intent, but it's obviously not the intent and you're reaching to defend the game.

so yeah, it's probably the worst puzzle in the entire game.
This may be the case, but only because it's confusing, and more easily solved by just trying everything than by figuring out in your head. To say it doesn't make sense, though, is incorrect.

It's not that it doesn't make sense in the way I don't make sense, it's not that it doesn't make sense like a serial killer, it's that it just doesn't make sense in reference to the way the game coddles you in every other level. So, I think inconsistent is still a pretty apt word for it.

Even if it does make sense from a hindsight view (which is truly how art games demand to be critiqued), you said right there "it's confusing", so it doesn't make sense to the player. That's the only way anything can be said about a video game. If it doesn't make sense to the player (most of the players even) then it just doesn't make sense.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:29 pm

savvyraven wrote:Wow, this topic is making me tired.

To be fair, though, you are very tired today.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:28 pm

I can see your point, though I wasn't as offended by it as you are. I wasn't offended by it at all, in fact, until I realized that it's the only place in the game where that happens.

Even then, I was only the slightest bit offended. Like if you were to describe my cultural background and fail to mention that I am 1/8 Hungarian.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:18 pm

Then you DO admit that the puzzle-bridge is not ideal. That is all I wanted. I WITHDRAW my previous comments about the key.

by **savvyraven** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:16 pm

Wow, this topic is making me tired.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:37 pm

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:36 pm

So do I have a "point" about the puzzle-bridge? I want to hear you say it.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:00 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: How was the green x-button immunity stuff handled? Very well! You quickly know that the RULES HAVE CHANGED!

And in the case of the key, the RULES HAVE NOT CHANGED, you are just given a new thing that the rules (which, remember from earlier in this sentence, have not changed) affect.

If he introduced a new rule and a new object to which the rule applies at the same time, you might have a point. However, he didn't, so you don't.

Okay, but please understand that some of us are playing these things on a higher level.

Best. Mother. Fucking. Of!

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:52 pm

pinback wrote:Let me ask now for the THIRD time, how do you want it to be "introduced" other than "PUTTING IT IN THE FUCKING GAME"?

Whoa, at first I didn't think you were wholly ignorant of the process of game design, but now that I can plainly see that you are, I will comment!

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, Braid takes the conventions of the side scroller, and twists them to create puzzles. Up until world 4 it does this fairly well, only completely and totally failing by breaking mimesis when a piece puzzle (that has its own interface) is used in the rest of the game world, to get more puzzle pieces.

With that in mind, the true talent of the game designer (which is different than the guy's obvious talents as a game programmer and so forth) are in getting the player to accept bite-size chunks of new shit, all leading to "something."

How was the green x-button immunity stuff handled? Very well! You quickly know that the RULES HAVE CHANGED! ooOOOoOoOo! And it's a nice and satisfying mental breakthrough to have.

Christ! It's a short game which makes its living on "introducing things" by "putting them into the game".

Sure, sure. But how it handles a few introduced things stops it from being a classic that people will talk about 20 years from now.

Yes, I thought it was okay. Do you know why? Cuz I said, "ah, ha, I get it, cute" and then moved on, rather than "OMG FUCK TIHS SHIT, that's not fair and they never do it again!! GAME DESIGN OMG??"

Okay, but please understand that some of us are playing these things on a higher level.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Ben, I grant you that it SEEMS tough. But you don't get off the hook here. Stuff that operates, or even seems to operate differently than other objects in the game world do need to be introduced.

Let me ask now for the THIRD time, how do you want it to be "introduced" other than "PUTTING IT IN THE FUCKING GAME"? You want a little cartoon guy to come out and say "Hi! I'm StinKey the Key Man! Well, what do we have here? A little Key! Well, shucks, that's right up my alley! But before you grab a hold of it, there's a few things you should know about this Key!" Christ! It's a short game which makes its living on "introducing things" by "putting them into the game".

Did you think that the puzzle forming a bridge was okay? Because I am 4 worlds in and that play mechanic hasn't been duplicated.

Yes, I thought it was okay. Do you know why? Cuz I said, "ah, ha, I get it, cute" and then moved on, rather than "OMG FUCK TIHS SHIT, that's not fair and they never do it again!! GAME DESIGN OMG??"

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:11 pm

pinback wrote:How is he going to introduce it in a way other than "putting it into the game at some point"?

The world 4 mechanic was introduced right away, in the first level, as all the world's work. How do you introduce different applications of the mechanic without just having them in the game?

Like I said, you want a tutorial before every board to explain why everything on the board is going to work like it is?

This is the fundamental issue with game design. Esepcially in a world where there are NO fucking manuals.

Ben, I grant you that it SEEMS tough. But you don't get off the hook here. Stuff that operates, or even seems to operate differently than other objects in the game world do need to be introduced.

Did you think that the puzzle forming a bridge was okay? Because I am 4 worlds in and that play mechanic hasn't been duplicated.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:17 pm

How is he going to introduce it in a way other than "putting it into the game at some point"?

The world 4 mechanic was introduced right away, in the first level, as all the world's work. How do you introduce different applications of the mechanic without just having them in the game?

Like I said, you want a tutorial before every board to explain why everything on the board is going to work like it is?

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:53 am

It may make sense. But good game design has the thing "introduced" anyway. I am confident that the designer will nail this if he ever chooses to make another "side scroller" type puzzle game.

A guy making his first game is going to make some mistakes. It doesn't ruin the amazing job he did otherwise.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:32 am

Worm wrote:Fickle companion may work like the world works, however you're not introduced to the world working like that up until that level (ladders and keys, and etc).

No matter WHAT board the key was introduced on, it would still be the case that you're not introduced to it until then. Was it supposed to include a little tutorial bubble? "HINT: the key works just like everything else in this world, but since it is an inanimate object that you can carry, it will act differently from the goombas who are autonomic creatures!"

Not to mention it makes perfect sense to think that the little goomba carrying the key would erase it's history.

Of course it does. Such is the nature of the Green Sparkly Things.

(ergo a time immune monster carrying the key shouldn't make it time immune.

Of course it should. How many green sparkly platforms in the game make YOU time immune just for standing on them? (Answer: all of them.)

so yeah, it's probably the worst puzzle in the entire game.

This may be the case, but only because it's confusing, and more easily solved by just trying everything than by figuring out in your head. To say it doesn't make sense, though, is incorrect.

by **pinback** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:26 am

hygraed wrote:http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... /203-Braid

He addresses a lot of the complaints you guys seem to have with the game, although his final verdict seems to be more favorable.

His complaints are valid except for the one about the "two door" thing, which while frustrating and seemingly random at first, turns out to not be random.

Like the key, they're just working exactly the way they should given the world 4 mechanics.

by **Worm** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:16 am

ZP has been completely horrible for his last three reviews, so I'm kind of glad I can't watch that one currently.

Fickle companion may work like the world works, however you're not introduced to the world working like that up until that level (ladders and keys, and etc). Not to mention it makes perfect sense to think that the little goomba carrying the key would erase it's history. So it's a special case in that there's no lead up to it, and that there is a specific single solution where there would be two solutions if the game was consistient (ergo a time immune monster carrying the key shouldn't make it time immune. He may be able to effect it despite the time conditions, but I don't think the key starts glowing green when he holds it) so yeah, it's probably the worst puzzle in the entire game.

by **hygraed** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:16 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Thank you for staying with us through the dark times of this BBS. I promise it will get better.

I post on Something Awful on a regular basis. The worst shitstorm I've seen on these forums pales in comparison to the idiocy I see every day in GBS.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:11 pm

hygraed wrote:http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... /203-Braid

He addresses a lot of the complaints you guys seem to have with the game, although his final verdict seems to be more favorable.

Thank you for staying with us through the dark times of this BBS. I promise it will get better.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:11 pm

savvyraven wrote:I admit that it works in that it doesn't work!

Right. I will admit that it does not work in a way that I like it to work, which is how I thought it should work.

by **hygraed** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:10 pm

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... /203-Braid

He addresses a lot of the complaints you guys seem to have with the game, although his final verdict seems to be more favorable.

Braid Analysis (Spoiler-Filled!)

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