Need Advice: IF Theory 101 (remedial course)

by **Protagonist X** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:10 pm

Thanks to ICJ, Roody_Yogurt, and Debaser for your enlightening replies -- it's given me a lot to think about, and definitely kept me focused on my new goal of releasing some halfway-decent IF by December 31st, 2003.

Sorry that I didn't reply earlier -- I've been reading the comments, but I haven't had a lunch hour free to myself in a while where I could reply to the posts.

Some interesting hilights:

Paul O'Brian's reviews page. What I ought to do before I release my work-in-progress is make a checklist of all the things that he rightfully points out as either sucking in IF or being annoying, and then go and ensure that my ware contains none of them.

It's a pity he doesn't have that checklist ready-made, because his reviews seem universally well-informed and thoughtful. Of course, reading pithy reviews to gain insight on IF design isn't exactly a punishment.

Not knowing who you are from the beginning of the game has really started to grate on me as well. I just like to be motivated when I start a game these days.

It was pretty much general advice, but I guess I probably mean that the player should always be aware of his motivations (instead of requiring him to search around and find out what he's supposed to do).

Allow me to second this notion and underline it three or four or five times. Especially at the very beginning of the game. So many authors like to drop you into a sort of "identity mystery" where the first puzzle is essentially figuring out who the fuck you are and what you're supposed to be doing. Either you have amnesia, or the PC isn't very forthcoming about what brought him to this point until it's later dragged out of him via flashback.
[...] most of the time it just leads (for me at least) to a few minutes of dicking around followed by an abrupt exit.

Duly noted, gentlemen.

What's making me snicker as I type this is that since the age of eight, I had wanted to write a text adventure where the PC is an amnesiac. It seemed like the ultimate opening for the medium. Apparently, it seemed that way to a bunch of other people as well.

Even funnier, though, is that I always planned out potential IF stories with "PC doesn't know much about what's going on" as a given. After reading the above quotes and taking them to heart, I started giving my PC more character and characterization, and I thought about the familiar world of his neighborhood and how he'd view it. After six hours of thinking like this, the piece I'm roughing out now is already looking heaps better than any other lame IF that I've put my hand to.

It is good.

Picture a formula somewhere where a player is willing to put up with frustration/confusion for X times the amount of time they've already involved in the game.

Another gem. Mentally, working out the sort of puzzles that I want and where to place them in the plotline became several orders of magnitude easier with this sort of mindset to guide me.

Unfortunately, I-0 isn't really my kind of game. [...] I guess it was too open-ended for me. I'd discover a couple different routes, get stuck on each one, and all the while speculate that I missed the really fun route to play.

Of course, this is an area where FoD kicked ass, and I know what you mean about how addictive it is. [...] t was so much fun and there's so much story that could be told that one wishes that adding new 'missions' wasn't so work-intensive (especially in text games) and that Robb could have put in a dozen more.

Another really insightful comment, helping to codify and spell out things I'd been thinking about in my own disorganized and stuttering terms. The main layout of the game I want to write has really taken shape from this sort of comment.

Once again, thanks for the help.

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Protagonist X

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 5:12 pm

Protagonist X wrote:1.) What are the must-read texts out there on IF Programming, puzzle design, character design, etc.? I'm Googling this as we speak, but I love having people with practical knowledge show me the truly worthwhile documents from the pile of cruft and misleading rants.

"The Art of Computer Game Design" by Chris Crawford. You can read it / print it out right here. He went crazy a while back, but there's so much good stuff in that tome, even though it is approaching 20 years of age.

Nelson's Inform Manual and the game design essay that went along with it -- the "example" stuff gets me pumped to write games, and best of all, everything mentioned can be implemented in IF.

Paul O'Brian's reviews page. What I ought to do before I release my work-in-progress is make a checklist of all the things that he rightfully points out as either sucking in IF or being annoying, and then go and ensure that my ware contains none of them. He is right on the money in his takes, and I find that when I do disagree with him it's usually due to preferences in genre or something specifically taste-oriented like that. While I can personally put up with a lot of shit in terms of crappy implementation in text games, but I don't want there to be anything unprofessional in a game I myself release.

... and it officially occurs to me that I don't have nearly enough documents relating to game design kicking about. Hmm.

2.) What do you use to motivate yourself to keep going when things get rough in the march from scribbled design notes to final debugging passes? (I want to actually finish something for once in my life here, and my New Year's Resolutions will be two: my bachelor's degree, and at least one game).

The whole of learning to program and release just something, anything was my motiviation when I released my chicken-comp game, which was the first one. A guy wrote a review of it in SPAG and there was many a time that I would read it when I was in the dog days of making Chicks Dig Jerks. The negative reviews of CDJ and ACS got me properly motivated to write, for once, a pair of games that were more-or-less recieved in a positive sense by the community at large in NTTS and FoD. I was also afraid that someone was going to come by and steal what ideas I'd been working on for those last two games, so that also got my butt into gear. Truth to tell, I have been extremely lax on the current game (there's no way it should have taken this long) but I had been coding after work pretty much non-stop for two and a half years at that point, so in the great scheme of things, it's OK.

3.) Are there any must-play games before writing one?

I'd recommend at least starting the top three games from each of the competitions (or last few competitions). I only saw how completely shitty my layout was for my TALK TO routines when I saw how they looked in Being Andrew Plotkin. Additionally, it helps you get a good sense of how far the field has come, and what interfacey things are out there that you might want for yourself.

4.) What sort of game would the readers here enjoy playing? I ask this because I'd like to make a game that's more rewarding than a map based around my current apartment.

Yeah, the apartment game has been done to death. Not knowing who you are from the beginning of the game has really started to grate on me as well. I just like to be motivated when I start a game these days. You can meander in a movie, in my opinion, because hell, the audience made a commitment to sit themselves down in the theatre. Even a non-IF game can muck around for a bit, as there are payoffs that come from shooting, driving, throwing and/or looking at the new high score in graphics. But IF demands its players to type in a reasoned command at every single prompt.

What am I looking for in an IF game these days? Currently, I want to play games that take me into some scene, world or setting that I can't get anywhere near in a game on the shelf at EB. The same thing that has so many books kicking the crap out of their movie equivalents ought to still be a strength in IF.

4a.) As an extension to the above question, what sort of tropes and sterotypes should I watch out for? The reason I ask is that the "map based on my house or apartment" is one of the only pitfalls I know enough to avoid, the other being "Zork/original Adventure clone with seemingly nonsensical placement of puzzles and stupid mazes into a dungeon crawl."

A dungeon crawl in and of itself can still be a solid game -- certainly, if it was funny enough I would be the first guy downloading it off GMD. (And admittedly, much of the middle part of FoD was a dungeonless dungeon / treasure crawl. Rather than trying to get 20 shiny things thrown in a trophy case so you can wedge yourself Inside the Barrow, it was about a guy trying to get five grand in credit so he could get to Chapter Four.)

Overall, a game with characters I want to be around supersedes whatever genre it happens to be in.

by **Roody_Yogurt** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:03 pm

Heh, I like how the last couple days probably cheered Robb up a bit. Not only did we get some interesting postage without his prodding (of course, it's much nicer when he's here to prod), but we also end up using his games as models of 'do this' a couple times.

by **Debaser** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:16 pm

Roody_Yogurt wrote: It was pretty much general advice, but I guess I probably mean that the player should always be aware of his motivations (instead of requiring him to search around and find out what he's supposed to do).

Allow me to second this notion and underline it three or four or five times. Especially at the very beginning of the game. So many authors like to drop you into a sort of "identity mystery" where the first puzzle is essentially figuring out who the fuck you are and what you're supposed to be doing. Either you have amnesia, or the PC isn't very forthcoming about what brought him to this point until it's later dragged out of him via flashback.

This might be a good idea in a commercial game where the player's pretty much already comitted himself to a few hours by sheer virtue of having spent cash, and maybe the "name" IF authors can get away with it, but most of the time it just leads (for me at least) to a few minutes of dicking around followed by an abrupt exit.

I'd recommend starting players with a few very easy non-puzzles. Things you couldn't do 100% on autopilot, but which should be figured out almost immediately when thought about. This will force the player to pay attention to the game world and get him involved in what's going on, but keep frustration to a minimum until the player's established a rythm and a certain amount of committment.

Picture a formula somewhere where a player is willing to put up with frustration/confusion for X times the amount of time they've already involved in the game. Frustration/confusion can be from difficult puzzles, or from just dropping the player into the middle of a situation without any immediately obvious goals. This isn't to say that difficult puzzles or situations where the player is (intentionally) lost don't have their place, just that both run the risk of turning the player off.

Oh, and it might go without saying, but pick your strength and flaunt it hard and fast right out the gate. I remember in Ben's review of FoD, he joked about how all of Rob's games tend to either start in bars or wind up in them really quickly. Because that's where he can hit you with the banter that is his signiture strength as a writer.

by **Roody_Yogurt** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:30 pm

Yeah... busy working on that. I played I-0 some time ago and loved it, though when I eventually downloaded Varicella I resorted to a walkthrough rather than spend six months of my life sweating over it. I admired Varicella, though.

Unfortunately, I-0 isn't really my kind of game. Besides not being able to identify with the protagonist (except for how completely freaking hot I am), I guess it was too open-ended for me. I'd discover a couple different routes, get stuck on each one, and all the while speculate that I missed the really fun route to play.

Of course, this is an area where FoD kicked ass, and I know what you mean about how addictive it is. Once I finally got past the beginning scene (which always gave me the wrong impression of the type of puzzles that I'd come across later), it was a pure joyride. In fact, it was so much fun and there's so much story that could be told that one wishes that adding new 'missions' wasn't so work-intensive (especially in text games) and that Robb could have put in a dozen more. I'll forever kick myself for not getting off my ass sooner and actually being a decent beta-tester for that game.

As for the comment about 'Varicella,' I still haven't played very far into that, but I understand what it's like to respect a game that isn't quite your cup of tea, gameplay-wise. After using a walkthrough through almost all of Infocom's Border Zone, I was still strangely satisfied because I thought that the plot had been interesting (I don't remember much about it, though).

All sorts of people raved about Sand, by Andrew Plotkin, and I hated, I mean hated hated hated it. I'm not a big "on-rails" guy to begin with, but with this one, I figured out the big secret of the thing within fifteen moves, and I couldn't believe that so many people had thought so highly of it.

I didn't hate it, but there was only a couple lines in it that I really liked.

I think I understand what you mean by that, but I'm worried I'm missing something... Are you referring to goals and subtasks and all that? Keep the flow going, make sure it never stops being interesting? Or am I missing something else?

It was pretty much general advice, but I guess I probably mean that the player should always be aware of his motivations (instead of requiring him to search around and find out what he's supposed to do). Of course, some games do away with this and make the whole point that players explore the results of their actions.

I mean, I guess 'make it interesting' is pretty stupid advice, but sometimes it seems that an author just takes it for granted that players will sit down and play the game for hours. 'This is my apartment/house' games fall into this kind of category.

And giving players several things to work on at once is nice(and somehow keeping tasks separate so players don't get confused... like in FoD, the game pretty much assures you through its style that you don't need object X from mission A to use in mission B... missions are self-contained).

But anyways, this all depends on the genre and what you want to accomplish (and its effect on pacing and style and what not).

Quote:
Personally, I most enjoy games that have a definite cinematic quality to them.

As above, I think I get it... if it's not too much trouble, could I ask you to comment more on this point and the ones above?

I prefer games to have a sense of action. I like games to have the three parts- the first chunk where things are established, the middle where the hunk of game is, and the endgame to wrap things up. I like the games to be very visual, but I'm not sure if that really depends on descriptions. Punk Points really gave me a strong image, but it's not like it drones on and on about everything. Atmosphere, good. And what can I say, I like when the plot comes together in a Hollywood way and doesn't try to bash some point down my throat.

Well, I guess that's all of the questions. This all reminds me when some internet thing sent me an e-mail directed to 'Professor Roody Yogurt,' offering to let me to teach a class on interactive Fiction or something.

by **ICJ** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:01 pm

PLACEHOLDER!!!

(In Connecticut right now, driving back in an hour or so -- didn't want you to think that I missed this thread, or saw it and didn't comment on it. So, I will when I get back.)

by **Protagonist X** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:29 am

Wow! First reply was quicker than I hoped. Thanks.

Well, all of the essays on IF theory that I've read, I've found useful, but if I'd have to choose one, I'd go with Graham Nelson's Bill of Player Rights[...]

Just found it in a stack of messages someplace. He raises some excellent points, and they're the sort of thing that's good for me to have spelled out so I'm mindful of them.

I'd play a bunch of IF games and think about what you like and what you don't like, too.

Yeah... busy working on that. I played I-0 some time ago and loved it, though when I eventually downloaded Varicella I resorted to a walkthrough rather than spend six months of my life sweating over it. I admired Varicella, though.

All sorts of people raved about Sand, by Andrew Plotkin, and I hated, I mean hated hated hated it. I'm not a big "on-rails" guy to begin with, but with this one, I figured out the big secret of the thing within fifteen moves, and I couldn't believe that so many people had thought so highly of it.

Robb's games are always worth the time. I was working a slightly later shift when FoD came out, and I remember that the second night, after I figured out the Video Store puzzle, I played nine hours straight in a frenzied mania. It was close to 10 am the next day when I finished, and I literally read the ending, took out my contact lenses, and crashed in bed for four hours before my next shift.

One day, I hope to have somebody entranced by something of mine like that.

I'm rambling again, dammit.

And remember, someone is sitting down to play your hypothetical game so don't make them work too hard for the payoff. Give them lots of sugar from the beginning, don't make the game too open-ended so that it becomes intimidating...

I think I understand what you mean by that, but I'm worried I'm missing something... Are you referring to goals and subtasks and all that? Keep the flow going, make sure it never stops being interesting? Or am I missing something else?

Personally, I most enjoy games that have a definite cinematic quality to them.

As above, I think I get it... if it's not too much trouble, could I ask you to comment more on this point and the ones above?

By the way, thanks for the suggestions: I just downloaded Punk Points, and within about five moves I've decided it's very, very cool. As I type, the pitifully slow 2k a second pipeline at my parent's house is trickling out Heroine's Mantle.

It's really all about execution.

Oh, definitely agreed. Robb, among others, gets away with things I wouldn't put up with in a lesser author because of the brilliance of his prose style, and the general panache with which he pulls stuff of.

I'll shut up now, and thanks again for the great advice.

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Protagonist X

by **Roody_Yogurt** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:25 am

1.) What are the must-read texts out there on IF Programming, puzzle design, character design, etc.? I'm Googling this as we speak, but I love having people with practical knowledge show me the truly worthwhile documents from the pile of cruft and misleading rants.

Well, all of the essays on IF theory that I've read, I've found useful, but if I'd have to choose one, I'd go with Graham Nelson's Bill of Player Rights, which is somewhere in http://lavka.cityonline.ru/nelson.htm. Of course, some of the rules are being challenged these days (for instance, it talks about scoring while there's a growing movement for scoreless games... I, personally, don't have a preference) and it's always within the author's right to change things anyways.

I'd play a bunch of IF games and think about what you like and what you don't like, too.

And remember, someone is sitting down to play your hypothetical game so don't make them work too hard for the payoff. Give them lots of sugar from the beginning, don't make the game too open-ended so that it becomes intimidating, and if the game is 'on rails', try to hide that fact as well as possible.

2.) What do you use to motivate yourself to keep going when things get rough in the march from scribbled design notes to final debugging passes? (I want to actually finish something for once in my life here, and my New Year's Resolutions will be two: my bachelor's degree, and at least one game).

Well, I've never put out a 100% completed game so I don't know exactly what to say. Some people give themselves rules like having to code X lines each day/week/whatever. J. Robinson Wheeler writes out a full game transcript to plan the game out than codes the game using that as a guide. Try to find something that works for you.

3.) Are there any must-play games before writing one?

Depends on what your favorite kind of game is. I'd try to find as many that will fit your style, because it's likely that the fans of those games will be your target audience.

4.) What sort of game would the readers here enjoy playing? I ask this because I'd like to make a game that's more rewarding than a map based around my current apartment.

Personally, I most enjoy games that have a definite cinematic quality to them. Heroine's Mantle, Robb's games, and Punk Points are some good examples. Keep me moving along and keep things exciting.

4a.) As an extension to the above question, what sort of tropes and sterotypes should I watch out for? The reason I ask is that the "map based on my house or apartment" is one of the only pitfalls I know enough to avoid, the other being "Zork/original Adventure clone with seemingly nonsensical placement of puzzles and stupid mazes into a dungeon crawl."

It's really all about execution. You can do anything you want, but try not to be lazy and rely on the genre to pick up your slack ('wow, he says I'm a hard-boiled detective... THAT MAKES ME SO HAPPY'). Of course, originality is nice because it avoids all that. Give us a unique perspective and interesting motivations.

by **Protagonist X** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 10:06 pm

To expand upon the subject title: I'm looking to stop dickering around with things and finally accomplish one of the many unfulfilled dreams of my life, namely the construction of a computer game that someone (besides my six closest friends) will play.

My problems with this are many. The most prominent is my level of programming skill, which is pretty much nonexistent. I've also never finished any program longer than thirty lines of craptacular BASIC on a PCjr. As a side note, the reason I initially downloaded the TADS development stuff a while back was because there was a tutorial for it written by a guy who was teaching programming techniques to a group of non-programmers, and using TADS as the language. It seemed like a good way to kill two birds with one stone: learn something about programming, and make use of all the intricate maps of squares I'd drawn in eighth grade when I wanted more than anything to work for Infocom as a game designer.

As another side note, the reason that I've stuck with trying to learn TADS is so that if anyone would ask me why I've never released anything, I'd have a ready-made excuse. "Oh, I'm waiting for the final releade of TADS 3/ the TADS 3 Library/ the TADS 3 documentation." This excuse may be drawing to a close -- the TADS 3 stuff is nearing release.

Anyhow, these are some of my questions for the vastly-more-accomplished designers on this board (pretty much all of whom seem to be people of discerning taste and judgement):

1.) What are the must-read texts out there on IF Programming, puzzle design, character design, etc.? I'm Googling this as we speak, but I love having people with practical knowledge show me the truly worthwhile documents from the pile of cruft and misleading rants.

2.) What do you use to motivate yourself to keep going when things get rough in the march from scribbled design notes to final debugging passes? (I want to actually finish something for once in my life here, and my New Year's Resolutions will be two: my bachelor's degree, and at least one game).

3.) Are there any must-play games before writing one?

4.) What sort of game would the readers here enjoy playing? I ask this because I'd like to make a game that's more rewarding than a map based around my current apartment.

4a.) As an extension to the above question, what sort of tropes and sterotypes should I watch out for? The reason I ask is that the "map based on my house or apartment" is one of the only pitfalls I know enough to avoid, the other being "Zork/original Adventure clone with seemingly nonsensical placement of puzzles and stupid mazes into a dungeon crawl."

Thanks in advance for your time, all of you. Oh, and I'm checking out the Hugo language right now as an alternative to TADS, almost solely based on the devotion shown to it by people who've switched to it.

Thanks again,

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Protagonist X

Need Advice: IF Theory 101 (remedial course)

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Need Advice: IF Theory 101 (remedial course)