The Tdarcos/Ben Pork Wager

[Tdarcos]

You dudes should create a new below-the-fold base and have it turn into the internet's greatest old game forum, much as the Hugo base has turned into the internet's <s>only</s> greatest Hugo forum.

Yeah, that reminds me; I need to post a serious bitch about that. ("We had Hugo certified as error free..") Yeah, right; that system is about as error free as my ass is diarrhea free.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

You dudes should create a new below-the-fold base and have it turn into the internet's greatest old game forum, much as the Hugo base has turned into the internet's <s>only</s> greatest Hugo forum.

Yeah, that reminds me; I need to post a serious bitch about that. ("We had Hugo certified as error free..") Yeah, right; that system is about as error free as my ass is diarrhea free.

I wrote a post saying I was joking about certifying Hugo, but I will assure you that any errors you are personally seeing is because of your incomplete understanding of this new programming language and engine, and not the language itself.

The reason I say that is because that is how it is and how it has been for every person who has ever learned a new language.

I am not certain as to why you first blame the system. A lot of people learning Hugo do that. A lot of people are wrong.

[pinback]

You dudes should create a new below-the-fold base and have it turn into the internet's greatest old game forum, much as the Hugo base has turned into the internet's <s>only</s> greatest Hugo forum.

Yeah, that reminds me; I need to post a serious bitch about that. ("We had Hugo certified as error free..") Yeah, right; that system is about as error free as my ass is diarrhea free.

I wrote a post saying I was joking about certifying Hugo, but I will assure you that any errors you are personally seeing is because of your incomplete understanding of this new programming language and engine, and not the language itself.

The reason I say that is because that is how it is and how it has been for every person who has ever learned a new language.

I am not certain as to why you first blame the system. A lot of people learning Hugo do that. A lot of people are wrong.

Wrong base, but yes:

TDARCOS (I AM SERIOUS HERE): If it is determined that ANY of the problems you have experienced with Hugo are as a result of a BUG IN HUGO, instead of your <s>incompet</s>incomplete understanding of the language, $30. $30 right into your account. From me.

[Flack]

(Cue "YOU STILL OWE ME $5" response from the Commander.)

[Tdarcos]

TDARCOS (I AM SERIOUS HERE): If it is determined that ANY of the problems you have experienced with Hugo are as a result of a BUG IN HUGO, instead of your <s>incompet</s>incomplete understanding of the language, $30. $30 right into your account. From me.

Consider the following:

Code: Select all

room W_Past_warehouse "Approaching East of Warehouse area."
{
   
    
   E_to W_of_warehouse
   W_to
      "Not available"
   
   long_desc
      "The path running east leads toward a warehouse."

    
}

This works fine. Entering this room from another place allows you to exit to the east, and prints a message "not available" if you try to go west. All other directions go to the standard "you can't go this way."

However, consider the following:

Code: Select all

room W_Past_warehouse "Approaching East of Warehouse area."
{
   
    
   E_to W_of_warehouse
   W_to       "Not available"
   
   long_desc
      "The path running east leads toward a warehouse."

    
}

This code is wrong, the compiler doesn't flag it, and if you execute it, going west from this room goes into a room with no description and which you cannot exit. The game is essentially locked up at this point and your only option is to restart.

Every real compiler treats white space the same whether it's blanks or a carriage return before blanks. This one does not, and this particular construct locks up the game.

I had it happen worse in a different room, it caused the run-time system to crash.

This is definitely a bug. If a compiler doesn't recognize a misuse of the language that causes a error, it's clearly a bug in the system.

Pay up!

[Tdarcos]

Every real compiler treats white space the same whether it's blanks or a carriage return before blanks. This one does not, and this particular construct locks up the game.

Oh, before you ask me, yes, I have written a program compiler, and more than once. One I wrote was a 7,000 line program in Visual Basic to translate Fortran IV into VB. Another was a basic compiler. And I've done maintenance on compilers, including two different Pascal compilers. I know how language translation works because I've done it.

[bruce]

Every real compiler treats white space the same whether it's blanks or a carriage return before blanks. This one does not, and this particular construct locks up the game.

Python cries!
Bruce

[pinback]

Robb!? ROBB!?!? HELP!!!??!?!

[Tdarcos]

Robb!? ROBB!?!? HELP!!!??!?!

Ayyy! GOTCHA!

[pinback]

Robb!? ROBB!?!? HELP!!!??!?!

Ayyy! GOTCHA!

I'd like Robb to weigh in on this before we start counting out 30 Banquet Pork Patty Dinners.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

This is definitely a bug. If a compiler doesn't recognize a misuse of the language that causes a error, it's clearly a bug in the system.

Pay up!

Not a bug. Page 22 of the Hugo Book says that you need to put a \ in if you want one line of code to span multiple lines in your source code. It's working exactly as how I'd expect.


NOT! A! CRIME! And yes, as Bruce states, there have been advanced in software engineering that you aren't familiar with. WHATTAYA KNOW, another example where the language is fine and the programmer who is knew to the language made a mistake.

Commander, the reason why I said it's going to be you and not the language is because that is how it is EVERY SINGLE TIME a programmer learns a new language.

Where this will all go next is that you'll find something the language doesn't have and call it a bug. There aren't multi-dimensional arrays. That will not be a bug when you attempt to use a multi-dimensional array. It was a specific decision made by the language author. It would be like saying BASIC has a bug because it has line numbers, Logo has a bug because there's a turtle on the screen, or that Javae has a bug because you have to do Integer.parseInt(string) to get the string "3" to act like an integer instead of just using it as one (like you can.... bringing this all back on itself..... in Hugo! DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!).

If you had been coding in Hugo for 10 years, yeah, you'll probably encounter a bug. All I was trying to say is that you're not going to find a bug using a programming language in your first two weeks. It is nothing against you personally, **that's just how it is.**

[pinback]

Though I agree with Robb's description, it doesn't appear he has addressed Tdarcos' actual comment, which was that putting a tab (or whatever that is) between "w_to" and "not available" makes going west break the goddamn game.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

it doesn't break the game, it's putting the player in a object called "Not Available". The compiler can't (and shouldn't) stop you from doing that.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

I just split this thread. Since it is about pork patties, we can keep it in the food base.

[Roody_Yogurt]

Page 48 of the Hugo Book (page 58 of the pdf) goes into further detail about this, too.

It explains that:

Code: Select all

w_to
     "Not available."

is interpreted as:

Code: Select all

w_to
{
      "Not available."
}

As ICJ points out,

Code: Select all

w_to     "Not avaiable."

is interpreted as:

Code: Select all

w_to
{
      return "Not available."
}

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

However, in all cases:

Code: Select all

w_to Pork_Patties

Returns not available. =(

[pinback]

Roody & Robb have sold me. NOT A BUG.

Ohhhhh, I'm afraaaaid the pork shield will be quite operational when your patties arrive!

[Tdarcos]

This is definitely a bug. If a compiler doesn't recognize a misuse of the language that causes a error, it's clearly a bug in the system.

Pay up!

Not a bug. Page 22 of the Hugo Book says that you need to put a \ in if you want one line of code to span multiple lines in your source code. It's working exactly as how I'd expect.

You didn't even read what I wrote, did you? (This is a big problem with a lot of people.) What you're saying is the exact opposite of what I was doing, and according to you, what I was not doing doesn't work unless I do something different. I am not trying to get one line of code to span multiple lines. I was (erroneously) trying to get one line of code to work when expressed on one line!

Expressing the text on two lines works perfectly (without the use of the backslash) but expressing the text on one line fails without error. This is the exact opposite of what you are referring to.

But the fact of the matter that misspecifying the line as one line instead of two is not flagged by the compiler and causes the game to lock up, and had you read what I said you would have realized that your response - that to split the line from one line to two requires use of \ at the end of the line - is the exact opposite from what is being done because I wasn't trying to split the line in the first place.

And yes, as Bruce states, there have been advanced in software engineering that you aren't familiar with. WHATTAYA KNOW, another example where the language is fine and the programmer who is knew to the language made a mistake.

Maybe if you weren't "new" to the English Language you wouldn't make a mistake either!

I am pointing out where a construct causes the run-time library to fail without detecting the error. If the construct is valid the application should not fail; if the construct is invalid the compiler should flag it as erroneous.

Commander, the reason why I said it's going to be you and not the language is because that is how it is EVERY SINGLE TIME a programmer learns a new language.

Where this will all go next is that you'll find something the language doesn't have and call it a bug.

That's got to be the weakest and most stupidly presented example of a strawman argument I've ever seen. It is neither an error nor a bug in Fortran, Basic or Java to fail to have pointers. It is neither an error nor a bug in Cobol to fail to have functions. It is not an error in C to fail to have virtual functions. None of these features are part of the language and failing to have them is not a bug nor is it an error. (Visual Basic would get a form of pointers and C++ would get virtual functions.)

Try learning logic and how to debate properly.

There aren't multi-dimensional arrays. That will not be a bug when you attempt to use a multi-dimensional array.

I was not trying to use a multidimensional array. I was using an object (a room) and attempting to assign to a property of that object, a value. I happened to do it wrong, once, in that I could not assign a string value to an object property on the same line, because it causes the game to fail, so I corrected it by moving the string down to the next line. But I remembered that the compiler did not note it as an error even though doing it that way causes the run-time library to fail.

It was a specific decision made by the language author. It would be like saying BASIC has a bug because it has line numbers,

I understand your analogy except that no Basic written in about the last 20 years has required line numbers. I have FreeBasic installed, I use it to do quick-and-dirty command-line applications where i need to write a file or something else, ever since Microsoft bastardized Visual Basic as .NET and turned it from Visual Basic into Java using (partial) Basic syntax. FreeBasic, just like Visual Basic before it, and several other versions of Basic, do not require line numbers (they also permit names for labels) and they don't require any form of labels at all. You can actually write working programs that have no line numbers nor labels.

But let me examine your argument (about mandatory line numbers) anyway.

Fine, if you write a line of code in a Basic where it requires line numbers, then the compiler screams bloody murder ("raises a flag") at the line that fails to have them. The compiler, on detecting a line without a line number, raises a flag of an error for violating the syntax rules. It does not silently accept the line that fails to follow the correct syntax, fail to raise a flag, compile the incorrect code without any error, then proceed to create an executable that simply locks up at that point, or if it did, we would consider the compiler has a bug in it.

But this is exactly the behavior Hugo permits in the source, then implements in the executable. If specifying a string to display as the value for a direction property requires it be on the next line, it should raise a flag and throw an error if it is not done that way. If it does accept it, it should not create an executable that basically locks up.

Logo has a bug because there's a turtle on the screen, or that Javae has a bug because you have to do Integer.parseInt(string) to get the string "3" to act like an integer instead of just using it as one (like you can.... bringing this all back on itself..... in Hugo! DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!).

Yu speld "Java" worng. :)

All I am saying is the Hugo compiler either misidentifies a construct that is not valid as if it is, and then creates a game that crashes/locks up the run-time library, or the compiler is failing to note an error that violates the rules. Either case represents a bug in the compiler and/or run-time system.

If you had been coding in Hugo for 10 years, yeah, you'll probably encounter a bug. All I was trying to say is that you're not going to find a bug using a programming language in your first two weeks. It is nothing against you personally, **that's just how it is.**

Don't presume you know what my capabilities are.

I have been programming for decades; that gives me an advantage in that I might push the envelope more than someone else. I found a major bug in the operating system back around 1978 that locked up a user's terminal on the Univac VS/9 operating system on the Univac 90/60 mainframe that could not be reset except by shutting the machine down and restarting. I wasn't even that good a programmer at the time, I'd only been doing programming for a couple of years.

I've found other bugs other places. I found a calculation error in the use of disk space in the DOS version of Free Pascal where it misunderstood free space exceeding 4 GB as negative free disk space. I took a look at the sources to the installer and run-time library, and in two hours I was able to make a bug report giving the exact line where the error was and what the correction needed to be.

I had one case, a college student was having a problem with his Pascal program and he'd been trying for four hours to find the error, so he came to me and asked for help. I did a simple strategy. I commented out his program at the half-way point where it would be syntactically correct and recompiled. No error. I tried it at 3/4 and I get an error. I kept splitting his program, and after about three or four minutes I found the problem: he'd failed to close a { comment block, so the next open comment that was closed started the next piece of code, causing a syntax error. I found and fixed an error in a program of about 2,000 lines that I'd never seen before in less than 5 minutes after the author spent four hours.

You have no idea what my capacity or capability is and you are not qualified to judge what I can or cannot do.

[Tdarcos]

Though I agree with Robb's description, it doesn't appear he has addressed Tdarcos' actual comment, which was that putting a tab (or whatever that is) between "w_to" and "not available" makes going west break the goddamn game.

That's exactly it. Simple enough.

[pinback]

This is a big problem