Concealed/Open Carry Class

[Flack]

As much as I wanted to flood the board with posts about the Oklahoma City Thunder, today I attended a concealed/open carry class. Beginning November 1st in Oklahoma, those with a license can now carry a firearm with them, either concealed or not. You can argue whether or not you think that's a good idea, but the fact is it just happened. Before you can apply to get a concealed carry license you have to attend an official training class. My dad already has his concealed carry license and even though you do not have to renew your license to openly carry, he wanted a refresher on the laws, so I agreed to take the class with him. There are two local places offering the class -- one place offers it in two four hour chunks for $60 (bring your own gun). The one we attended was $75 for one 8 hour day, they supplied the guns and lunch.

The first part of class, from 8am-11am, consisted of gun safety. Don't point a gun at anything you don't intend to kill, stuff like that.

From 11am-noon, we got split into two groups. Half of us shot while the other half ate lunch, and then we swapped. There was no real "qualifying" per se ... really all they were looking for is basic gun safety -- the ability to shoot at a target without shooting yourself or the people around you. We each shot 50 rounds, half from 3 yards and half from 5 yards. Our targets were paper plates. If you can't hit a paper plate from 3 yards away you have no right carrying a loaded firearm anywhere.

From 12-4:30, we talked about legal scenarios. Is it legal to shoot someone you see beating his wife in a parking lot? (No it is not.) Is it legal to shoot someone in the back as they are feeling from your house? (No it is not.) Are you allowed to shoot someone who is robbing a 7-11 while you are inside if they do not fire a shot? (No it is not.) I was really starting to get frustrated -- there seemed to be a lot of scenarios in which you are not allowed to shoot people! In the end we learned you are allowed to defend yourself with deadly force if you feel your life is being threatened. You can also legally defend the life of your parents, children, spouse, employer, or employee. That's it. That being said there are exceptions to every rule, and really what you have to ask yourself is, what would a jury of your peers say?

At least half of the afternoon consisted of off topic conversations. I hate "what if" guys. "What if this happened? What if that happened?" WHAT IF. GAHD SHUT UP. The class was taught by a cop and somehow they got off on traffic stops and literally talked for 20 minutes about pulling people over. Yawn. No shooting people, I'm not interested.

If I do end up getting my license, I have to go apply and pay ... let's see, $25 for the application, $10 for fingerprints, and $100 for a 5 year license. Oh and I'll need a gun, too -- don't have one yet.

[AArdvark]

What would you get if you were to buy a handgun?

More importantly, what kind of safety devices will you employ around your house?

My best friend has this alarm clock that doubles as a gun safe. If you didn't know it was there you would never suspect it held an airweight.


THE
NOT ME
AARDVARK

[Flack]

What would you get if you were to buy a handgun?

I guess first you have to decide what you want a gun for -- home protection, or for taking out of the house. I want one for both. I don't plan on carrying a gun every time I leave the house, but I would like one for when I take cross country road trips. I have always worried about one of our cars breaking down and having something happen before we could get help.

For concealed carry, the instructor said get the biggest gun you are willing to carry all the time -- reason being, a small gun that you will carry is better than a big gun that you leave at home because it's too big.

I think 45s are too big to be fun to shoot. I shoot my dad's at the range and I hate it. I like the 22 for target practice. A 9mm is about the biggest I like for "fun" and might get one of those. A 9mm loaded with hollow points will drop an attacker without making everyone in the house deaf.

Now that I have moved 15 minutes north of the city, it would take police 15 minutes (at least) to get to my house. I know that in the very rare chance that someone tried to break in here, it could very well be half an hour before the cops got here. You are on your own for a very long time.

More importantly, what kind of safety devices will you employ around your house?

I am deathly afraid of my kids getting their hands on a gun and that's the number one reason why I have never had one in the house. I don't know what I am going to get yet but I'm thinking either a gun safe with a number pad on the front, or one with an RFID or a fingerprint lock. I have to be absolutely convinced that the kids can't get into it.

[RetroRomper]

I don't plan on carrying a gun every time I leave the house, but I would like one for when I take cross country road trips.

Isn't carrying a gun (especially one in open carry mode) across state lines at best a touchy situation? I don't imagine that a cop (or a Judge for that matter) from Arizona or Nebraska will give very much weight to a license from OK.

[Flack-iPad]

It's valid in about 35 other states, including Arizona Nebraska.

http://www.ok.gov/osbi/Handgun_Licensin ... index.html

[Clarence Boddicker]

Oooo, guns, guns, guns!

[Tdarcos]

Original Item moved to: http://www.joltcountry.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=71708

I don't plan on carrying a gun every time I leave the house, but I would like one for when I take cross country road trips.

Isn't carrying a gun (especially one in open carry mode) across state lines at best a touchy situation? I don't imagine that a cop (or a Judge for that matter) from Arizona or Nebraska will give very much weight to a license from OK.

You can get a concealed carry permit from any of the 33 states that honor each other's permit. States generally - with exceptions - honoring each other's permit are: AL, AK, AZ, AR, CO, DE, FL, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NH, NV, NM, NC, ND, OH, OK, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, VA, WA, WV, WY. These don't honor any other state's permit: CA, DC, HI, IL, MD, MA, NJ, NY, NY City, OR, RI.

This chart tells where, if you have a CCW permit, what states will honor it, and what states honor what permits.

[pinback]

I don't plan on carrying a gun every time I leave the house, but I would like one for when I take cross country road trips.

Isn't carrying a gun (especially one in open carry mode) across state lines at best a touchy situation? I don't imagine that a cop (or a Judge for that matter) from Arizona or Nebraska will give very much weight to a license from OK.

A gun training organization in Nevada that I get e-mail from

1

mentions that you can get a concealed carry permit

2

from any of the 33 states that honor each other's

3

permit, you can also carry in their state using the

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permit from a mutistate's permit. You must have a

5

CCW permit from your home state unless your home

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state does not issue them (e.g. Vermont allows

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anyone to carry, open or concealed as long as they

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do not have a felony conviction, and does not require or issue a permit.)

With further research I discovered what the key is:

Basically, in addition to your home state, you get a Utah non-resident permit and it's good for 30 states, and a Florida or Texas non-resident one to also get New Mexico. The one that I get mail is in Nevada so they have you apply there so that if you buy or bring a gun with you to train you can then carry it back with you while in Nevada.

I went on-line and found the list.

The states that generally honor each other's carry permit are:

Alabama, Alaska*, Arizona***, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho#, Indiana#, Kentucky#, Louisiana, Michigan#, Minnesota, Mississippi#, Missouri#, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Nevada****, New Mexico**, North Carolina#, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma#, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota#, Tennessee#, Texas, Utah#, Vermont***, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wyoming

The following jurisdictions do not honor any other state's permit:
California, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, New York City, Oregon, Rhode Island

# Honors any other state's permit
* Alaska is very similar to Vermont, no permit needed and anyone with clean record can carry but they must also have photo ID in their possession
** New Mexico honors permits from Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware. Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, West Virginia
*** Allows non-felons to open or concealed carry without a permit
**** Nevada honors Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee, Rhode Island, West Virginia

This chart tells where, if you have a CCW permit, what states will honor it, and what states honor what permits:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Happiness Engine]

I don't plan on carrying a gun every time I leave the house, but I would like one for when I take cross country road trips. I have always worried about one of our cars breaking down and having something happen before we could get help.

(13:59:36) CatVillainess: Isnt an AAA membership a lot more useful for when your car breaks down than a gun?
(14:00:06) CatVillainess: Seriously, are you going to threaten your tire until it reinflates?
(14:00:14) CatVillainess: Comandeer a new car?
(14:00:16) CatVillainess: What?

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Tdarcos, you get 8 lines. Quit fucking up Flack's thread. I don't want to see posts crying about how you weren't warned. This is your last warning.

Happiness Engine - fine. You saw through Flack's little ruse. What is really going on is that he wants to kill a guy when traveling through the interstate highway system and you are KIND OF ruining it by poking holes in his balloon of pain here.

Flack - I am highly curious as to what gun you get. I'll probably sponge off your research and get the same in 2013.

[Flack]

AAA vs. Guns is a valid question.

This past summer we took an Alaska cruise, leaving from Seattle. We drove our minivan, which currently has 215,000 miles, from Oklahoma to Seattle. We went on the cruise and had a great time. When the cruise returned to Seattle, we went out to our minivan and the battery was dead. We discovered that one of the kids left on one of the dome lights.

Now, it just so happens, I do have AAA, so we called them. I really want to paint this visual for you. We were in the middle of a huge parking lot, and just outside the parking lot was the AAA shop. Had I climbed on top of the van I would have easily been able to see the AAA building. So we called AAA and they said it would be 60-90 minutes before they could come over and give us a jump. Again, if I had a rock in my hand and the wind had been just right, I could have hit the AAA building from where we were parked. I have no doubt that I could have pushed the van over there in less than 90 minutes. But, they only had one guy working that Sunday, he was out towing a car, and he would be there in 60-90 minutes. It was closer to 90.

Now, about where we were stranded -- we were in an outdoor parking lot with controlled access, surrounded by a big fence with barbed wire across the top. We couldn't have been in a safer place. There was a security guard that came around about every 15 minutes to check on us. (He said his employer prevented him from giving our car a jump.) It was cold, but not unbearably cold. We were in no danger whatsoever.

But.

What if it had been 11pm instead of 11am? What if we had been in East St. Louis instead of eastern Seattle? What if the first person to arrive was not a AAA employee?

I guess overall I would say that I think of AAA as being a lot like the police. I think their intention is noble and I think once you call them, they plan on heading your way and coming to help you. I also think that, until they arrive, you are on your own. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[Flack]

A bit more in regards to gun choice ... and I'll start off by saying, I don't know very much about guns, so some of this is just me putting my current thoughts down.

The first thing to decide is, are you going to own multiple guns, or just one? I just want one. The next thing you have to decide is, what do you want a gun for? I want a gun for both home protection and, occasionally, outside the home protection. If you decide you want multiple guns then you might want a different gun for home protection vs. one for carrying outside the home. If you just want to own one gun, like I do, then you have to pick one that works the best for all scenarios.

The way the concealed carry licenses work is that there are three levels: derringer, revolver, or semi-auto. If you qualify at the range with a derringer, that's all you can carry. (Derringers are tiny guns that only hold one or two bullets.) If you qualify with a revolver then you can carry either a revolver or a derringer. If you qualify with a semi-automatic weapon (one with a clip), then you can legally carry any of the three. All of the concealed carry classes around here (including the one I took) require you to qualify with a semi-automatic pistol. The class I took supplied 22s, which make holes slightly larger than a BB would.

It was the opinion of our instructor, for what it's worth, that "more bullets are better". Also according to him, in a standard gun fight or shoot out, approximately 18% of bullets hit their targets. The downside of revolvers is that they only hold six shots, and they are slow to reload. I will say that a semi-auto takes a little more time to become familiar with and are a little more intimidating, but it really only takes just a little bit of time to become more comfortable with them.

Next up is the size of the ammo and that's where I'm still debating. The 22 I shot left holes about the size of a screwdriver being poked into something. There are websites I've found that say a thick winter coat might stop a 22 from penetrating a person. I wouldn't want to take one to the eye, but I would also be afraid that it wouldn't stop someone really intent on harming me or my kids.

Then there are the 9mm/.38s, which are essentially the same bullet. From what I understand, 9mms shoot faster while 38s pack more mass, but whatever you shoot with either one is going to have a real bad day.

Then you've got .40s and 45s. Those are obviously heavy duty weapons. I've shot my Dad's .45 many times and it's not fun. It kicks hard, it's heavy, and it's loud. Obviously it is going to do a lot of damage (which is ultimately the idea) but on the other hand, practicing with it at the range isn't all that much fun.

That, along with the fact that you can get 9mm ammo anywhere (and it's really cheap) is why I'm leaning toward that. Everyone I talk to so far has a different opinion, however.

[AArdvark]

Only fired my friend's .40 cal Glock on one occasion. Loud and rather inaccurate, but that might have just been me trying to hit a target too far away for the range of the gun.


Scary to think about having a shoot out/ gun fight situation in any event.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Only fired my friend's .40 cal Glock on one occasion. Loud and rather inaccurate, but that might have just been me trying to hit a target too far away for the range of the gun.


Scary to think about having a shoot out/ gun fight situation in any event.

Not if Tdarcos keeps quoting Wikipedia for 100 lines.

[Flack]

Only fired my friend's .40 cal Glock on one occasion. Loud and rather inaccurate, but that might have just been me trying to hit a target too far away for the range of the gun.

If it's anything like my Dad's .45, my first shot was a lot more accurate than all the others as I was anticipating a hard kick and a loud boom every shot after the first one.

[Tdarcos]

The first thing to decide is, are you going to own multiple guns, or just one? I just want one.

When carrying, largest gun holdable w/o fatigue is better. Smaller gun on you better than larger one at home too heavy to carry.

It was the opinion of our instructor, for what it's worth, that "more bullets are better". Also according to him, in a standard gun fight or shoot out, approximately 18% of bullets hit their targets.

I read In combat, typically takes thousands of shots 2 kill 1 soldier. Most shooting to mess up other side's shooting, and force their heads down. Bank of America Shootout in North Hollywood, CA confirmed this. Two guys against the LAPD, and tens of thousands of rounds shot on both sides, and mostly misses or injuries. They died and I think they killed only 4 people despite hundreds of police and bystanders in the area.

[Tdarcos]

Not if Tdarcos keeps quoting Wikipedia for 100 lines.

What is it with you people? You're the second person to falsely accuse me of quoting Wikipedia, and I'm getting sick of it. Get your goddam facts straight, I did not use Wikipedia at all. I got the information from places that offer training for CCW permits, and once you get a permit, where else it's valid.

[Turing Test]

... a small gun that you will carry is better than a big gun that you leave at home because it's too big.

Smaller gun on you better than larger one at home too heavy to carry.

Survey says? Fail.

[pinback]

Bank of America Shootout in North Hollywood, CA confirmed this. Two guys against the LAPD, and tens of thousands of rounds shot on both sides, and mostly misses or injuries. They died and I think they killed only 4 people despite hundreds of police and bystanders in the area.

Just in case anyone cares about facts, the shooters killed zero people.

[Flack]

Defending yourself during a home invasion <> two bank robbers in full body armor <> duty combat.