Some thoughts on D&D 4E

[bruce]

I'm still in the PHB, but:

The new alignment system (LG,G,E,CE,"unaligned") sucks. Really. The new cosmography also sucks, but, hey, I *liked* the Great Wheel. The new races...well, I miss half-orcs. Gnomes can suck it. Dragonborn? HELLO MUNCHKINVILLE. Eladrin? WTF? Like Regular Elves weren't cool enough? Tielflings, well, again HELLO MUNCHKINVILLE but they were Planescapeish, so they're slightly forgiven.

This might be fun, but it isn't D&D, case study 1: No "Fireball"--gratuitously renamed to "Fire Burst".

This might be fun, but it isn't D&D, case study 2: No "Wish." Seriously. WTF? No "Wish", or "Miracle", or indeed, "Resurrection" or "Reincarnate." "Raise Dead" is apparently it, and it doesn't actually cost a level, but it penalizes you a bit.

Ritual Magic: it's about time. I'm not sure I agree with all the spells that are rituals now, but the basic idea is sound.

I'm not sure about the rationalization of "Level"--there's no "Fireball" (uh, "Fire Burst") is a 3d level spell anymore. Instead it's a Level 7 Encounter Spell--so you can get it at 7th Level (which is about right, since 30th is the new 20th (which was the new 18th)). I think in this case, though, the new-and-streamlined-mechanic probably does make sense and I'm just being a grumpy curmudgeon.

I think Actions probably make a lot more sense. I *never* understood how Attacks of Opportunity, or indeed Grapples, were supposed to work. The new stuff looks easier.

Platinum pieces are now worth 100 gp, and "Astral Diamonds" are 100pp. Yay! We finally have some reasonable way to carry around the wealth required to buy high-level goodies.

The Four Roles (Leader, Defender, Striker, Controller) make a certain amount of sense, although the Wizard is the only Controller, which is a problem. The names are weird. Clerics and Warlords (new class) are Leaders, but Leaders basically buff the party (see, I'm doing it now too). Fighters are "Defenders", and Rogues and Warlocks (sorta like Sauciers, only not really) are Strikers. So are Rangers--who suck less than in 3E. The ranger is what you now play for either Rapidfire Arrow Guy or WHIRLING DUAL-WIELDED BLADES OF DEATH. What exactly this has to do with tracking goblins through the woods is unclear, but whatever.

The new art looks cool, but everything is designed so that it LOOKS COOL rather than having, you know, some FUNCTION for its FORM. Like GINORMOUS SWORDS A LA FINAL FANTASY that no one could possibly wield, or these shields in Cool Spiky Complicated Shapes that, because they look like cookies with bites out of them WOULD NOT ACTUALLY COVER YOU if you were interposing them between you and a weapon.

"Vorpal" has now lost its roots. It just means "Does a hell of a lot of damage." Lewis Carroll cries! So do I. Decapitation is cool.

Actually, that last one sort of sums up everything that's wrong with 4E. It's completely lost all sense of its history. It's clear that this edition was designed by people (whippersnappers, I'm sure) who play a lot of World of Warcraft, and played 3E, but never actually played any of the earlier D&D or AD&D editions. So they know that "vorpal weapons" are top-of-the-line magical, but not *why* that seems to have something to do with decapitation, and they felt free to throw away that special feature. Nor have they read any of the ur-texts: no hint that Jack Vance still has anything to do with the system (Ioun has become the goddess of magic. Really). They know Conan and Middle-Earth through the movies, not the books. In fact, fundamentally, D&D has become much less textual and that makes me very sad. I am reminded of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/28

As far as the actual game: sure, I'll give it a go. But, well, this is the first edition that is not, in fact, recognizable as a lineal descendent of _Chainmail_. For all that Hasbro showed some class by getting the dedication to the memory of E. Gary Gygax printed in the books (which, as last-minute changes to a giant print run go, is a good one to have made), this is not the same game. And you know what? I *liked* that game, deeply flawed as it was. Not so sure about this one.

Bruce

[pinback]

The Four Roles (Leader,

Defender,

Striker,

Controller

[Lex]

I would play that.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Honestly, Bruce, the new changes all sound terrible.

I dream of a day with more free time. We'll get there -- probably late next year, after the wedding and honeymoon. And I would love to play, over the Internet, D&D, first edition with you and some of your friends. I bet Dayna would like it, too.

I am speaking from ignorance with what I am about to say: I really, really thought TSR/WOTC would embrace the Internet for their next edition. I thought they'd have it completely integrated. I played in a session with some guys from the ifMud last year, and we were able to use Java-made tools that let us see our dudes on a shared screen. I would have thought that WoTC would have official versions of all that stuff.

And it honestly feels like just yesterday that version three came out. In the manual for Necrotic Drift, Jarret makes fun of the low cost of entry to play the game (just new rulebooks every ten years!) but Christ, it really seems skewed.

Actually, I will look up the release dates for the different versions!

...

1977 AD&D 1st Edition
1989 AD&D 2nd Edition
2000 D&D 3rd Edition
2008 D&D 4th Edition

Oh. So it was sooner. 12 years between 1 and 2. 11 years between 2 and 3. And now 8 years between 3 and 4.

"Too soon....!" -- Audience, to Gilbert Goddfried

[bruce]

Honestly, Bruce, the new changes all sound terrible.

I dream of a day with more free time. We'll get there -- probably late next year, after the wedding and honeymoon.

By which time there will probably be a baby in my life. And I will never be able to play D&D again.

I played 4th ed. tonight. It wasn't terrible, and it still seemed like D&D.

Bruce

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

That baby had best learn to ROLL SOME DICE.

Did they eliminate the differently-sided dice from D&D? I can't remember if they did that for 3.5 or not. Making all the dice rolls d20 seems like it would come from the same braintrust that looked at the spell "fireball" while stroking their mutton chops going, "hmm, yes, I can improve this spell, it is more a fire burst is it not, hmmm."

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

(If they DID eliminate all the dice except for the die 20, I was honestly not aware. It's like when I was making fun of the new Battlestar Galactica show to Ben in gchat, and I said, after a few minutes, "What else did they do, make Adama hispanic?" and then got logged off at.)

[bruce]

That baby had best learn to ROLL SOME DICE.

Did they eliminate the differently-sided dice from D&D? I can't remember if they did that for 3.5 or not. Making all the dice rolls d20 seems like it would come from the same braintrust that looked at the spell "fireball" while stroking their mutton chops going, "hmm, yes, I can improve this spell, it is more a fire burst is it not, hmmm."

No. To hit rolls are d20. But damage is all kinds of dice still.

Bruce

[loafergirl]

and here i started another thread about this same subject oblivious due to my absenteeism.

Yeah I have similar feelings, but next Friday I should be testing out the new combat rules, perhaps they will balance out the suckiness of the alignment issues and changes in race.

-LG

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

I nuked the D&D base because it wasn't getting enough ACTION. Whoops!

Christ, I wish I could play Internet D&D with video conferencing. I am really surprised that they released 4.0 off the ten-year schedule and didn't make it completely compatible with the Internet?

[loafergirl]

It's half stolen from video games like "Get Over Here" pulling your opponent towards you two spaces.... Mortal Kombat Scorpion anyone????

And it has lost a lot of it's roots, BUT...

The attack of opportunity system WAS a pain in the ass.

And it does make sense to extend the levels and the reworking they did to the spell system seems much cooler, as apposed to the 8th lvl wizards w/5th lvl spells or whatever, it's level appropriate, and the progression is steadier.

The actual level changes should, in theory, help extend playtimes for parties... I find it very common that we'll have a good campaign and be having fun, but once characters start reaching higher levels it's always a life death battle and the DM is finding it more difficult to keep the group cohesive etc...

More levels = more gaming in that sweet spot after you don't have to worry about getting killed by an ant bite, but before your character becomes legendary.

Have you played yet Bruce?

-LG

[loafergirl]

I nuked the D&D base because it wasn't getting enough ACTION. Whoops!

Christ, I wish I could play Internet D&D with video conferencing. I am really surprised that they released 4.0 off the ten-year schedule and didn't make it completely compatible with the Internet?

I think a thread is fine, probably doesn't need a base. I don't plan on going all "Dead Ale Wives" on you. We're just talking new game mechanics and theory not casting magic missile at the darkness =)

I'm not surprised TSR - bought by Wizards of the Coast - bought by Matel??? Wizards breathed new life into it but made it a little too Magic-ee, Matel is making modifications that make it more marketable. And making it fully internet accessable means that it's going to get leaked everywhere and then it's not as profitable.... like 4.0s pdf files.

-LG

[bruce]

The attack of opportunity system WAS a pain in the ass.

And "opportunity attacks" are TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Er, wait.

I find it very common that we'll have a good campaign and be having fun, but once characters start reaching higher levels it's always a life death battle and the DM is finding it more difficult to keep the group cohesive etc...

Yeah, but of course then death becomes merely a temporary inconvenience. I like the fact that (in my 3.5 game) the (now 20th-level) cleric refuses to learn True Resurrection and makes the party rely on the druid casting Reincarnate. Most of the party has become Elf Chicks as a result of that. Well, and a Dwarf Chick. I keep hoping for a badger.

Have you played yet Bruce?

Yeah, we played through the sample dungeon in the DMG, and then we played through the Irontooth battle in Keep on the Shadowfell and if I'd been playing Irontooth honestly, there would have been a TPK. As it was we had plenty of people missing two death saves, but no one missed the third.

The tactical combat is working out pretty well. I wouldn't mind if my players got sick of it though and we could move to something more free-form.

Bruce

[loafergirl]

Yeah, but of course then death becomes merely a temporary inconvenience. I like the fact that (in my 3.5 game) the (now 20th-level) cleric refuses to learn True Resurrection and makes the party rely on the druid casting Reincarnate. Most of the party has become Elf Chicks as a result of that. Well, and a Dwarf Chick. I keep hoping for a badger.

Perhaps a large wooden badger?
Our last 3.5 campaign was a bit different as we were playing undead characters... in the undead world when you're done, you're done.
And this time the DM has dubbed we must play our own genders, as it was getting a bit confusing for a while with most of the women playing men, and vise versa actually.

The tactical combat is working out pretty well. I wouldn't mind if my players got sick of it though and we could move to something more free-form.

Bruce

Like what, Paranoia? =)

-LG

[bruce]

something more free-form.

Like what, Paranoia? =)

-LG

I want to play Trail of Cthulhu. I also want to play Dogs In The Vineyard with a group that likes that sort of thing (not mine). I probably will end up playing "Three-Point Fudge", which is a Fudge-based game I put together that plays like GURPS Very Very Very Lite.

Here's the character sheet (and character creation rules):

http://www.fsf.net/~adam/3ptfudge.pdf

Bruce

[bruce]

Here's the character sheet (and character creation rules):

http://www.fsf.net/~adam/3ptfudge.pdf

And here's a filled-out character sheet, from the game we did recounting a particular day in Leadville, CO, in 1882.

http://www.fsf.net/~adam/Oscar.pdf

Bruce

[loafergirl]

I want to play Trail of Cthulhu. I also want to play Dogs In The Vineyard with a group that likes that sort of thing (not mine). I probably will end up playing "Three-Point Fudge", which is a Fudge-based game I put together that plays like GURPS Very Very Very Lite.

Here's the character sheet (and character creation rules):

http://www.fsf.net/~adam/3ptfudge.pdf

Bruce

Played call of Cthulhu (sp???) a couple of times, was rather interesting, I liked it. never hears of Dogs in the Vineyard. I am amused by Oscar Wilde =)

[bruce]

Played call of Cthulhu (sp???) a couple of times, was rather interesting, I liked it. never hears of Dogs in the Vineyard. I am amused by Oscar Wilde =)

That was a really fun game.

It's based on a historical event: Oscar Wilde came to Leadville, which at the time was a rather tough place, and gave a talk.

The scenario in my game was this:

The player characters were kicked awake by the sheriff in the drunk tank, and told that this Englishman was coming to town on the morning train, and was going to be giving a speech that night, and they'd better make sure he came to no harm in between.

And then Oscar showed up, already drunk, and proceeded to, er, sample the delights of Leadville with great and to-some-residents-disconcerting enthusiasm.

We had brothels and whiskey and propositioning grizzled miners and Chinese laundries with opium and a pistol duel and everything. It was great.

Bruce

[kythri]

Platinum pieces are now worth 100 gp, and "Astral Diamonds" are 100pp. Yay! We finally have some reasonable way to carry around the wealth required to buy high-level goodies.

Has this REALLY been an issue for people, one that they couldn't resolve without 4th Edition?

Not only does the 3rd Edition or 3.5 PHB and DMG contain a TON of information on various monetary values for things like gems or trade goods, but, heck, how hard is it to issue a super-simple house-rule regarding exchange rates, or to simply create a new gem with a specific value, if that's what it takes?

Multiple campaigns I've played in have had some form of banking. The current campaign we're running has one of the churches running banking throughout the known lands (hello, Knights Templar, anyone?).

[loafergirl]

Okay, now having played an encounter it's going to take some adjustment. A lot more to keep track of with the daily/per encounter/ etc... stuff. But add to that that battle times are much greater. It's no longer 12 goblins, and 2 head goblins, now there are several groupings of goblins at various difficulties with their own initiatives...