Page 1 of 1

Using a KVM

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:54 am
by Tdarcos
I also bought a KVM switch. For $29 it allows up to 4 computers (the usual price is like $49), and it allows switching 4 USB keyboard & mouse combinations. Uses a single cable, somehow they can send the keyboard, mouse and monitor on one wire then split them back at the computer's end.

I prefer PS/2 keyboard and mouse; I have never really liked USB keyboard/mouse setups, if your system has problems and you have USB mouse and (especially) keyboard, you're hosed. I think it was because USB ones were not natively supported by the BIOS on the older machines.

Anyway, this works flawlessly. I just push the button to switch between the two computers (I could have bought a 2-machine KVM for $14 but I want to be able to move to other machines in the future and I have the capacity to do so.)

I have a 140 GB drive on my old HP Pavillion machine. I could remove everything that's just data files and so forth to the 2TB drive in the Opteron, back them up on BD as well, then swap drives putting the 80 in the Paviliion and the 140 in the Cube, and leave the old HP machine for the functions I have on it, but have the dual core machine with the much larger hard drive. But taking it apart looks like a lot of work. But now I can have all three machines I'm running in front of me so I can get to them for moving files around as needed.

I'll think about what I'm going to do. These machines are so fast I might just leave them as is and just share files from box to box. The Pavillion is kind of slow, the Opteron (64-Bit) and the Cube (32-bit 3GHZ dual core) might be fast enough that I don't notice.

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:51 pm
by Ice Cream Jonsey
Isn't there a program to do this all in software right now?

Here's why I dislike my KVM switch, and it's not really the KVM switch's fault: Ubuntu boots up in 800x600 mode if it's plugged into the KVM switch and not the active PC when it boots.

I forget the name of the software that acts like a KVM switch.

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:57 pm
by Flack
Synergy.

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:52 am
by Tdarcos
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Here's why I dislike my KVM switch, and it's not really the KVM switch's fault: Ubuntu boots up in 800x600 mode if it's plugged into the KVM switch and not the active PC when it boots.
Who would be stupid enough to boot a PC when not viewing the image in order to get the system to sync properly? If the PC can't get feedback from the monitor, why would you expect it to do anything but a safe mode fallback? When I boot a machine on a KVM I always have it as the focus machine until the boot process completes. I've known that is a requirement since the first time I had a KVM, oh, 1995 or so.

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:22 am
by Flack
Yes, Johnsey. Why are you so stupid?

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:56 am
by ICJ
Who would be stupid enough to boot a PC when not viewing the image in order to get the system to sync properly?
I'm going to give you a piece of information that not only leverages my 15 years in the information technology industry, but 26 years using a computer every single day of my life: you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

The computer used to host this forum? Doesn't have an active monitor.

The thousands of computers Google uses in a farm to help you find, God help us all, whatever you are searching for? They don't have an active monitor.

AND YET, a proper picture comes up anyway if a tech needed to pop over to one physically. This literally only happens on Ubuntu. There is a bug written on it for Ubuntu, but thick-headed idiots pshed it away and I've got way too much going on to fix it myself.

If the PC can't get feedback from the monitor, why would you expect it to do anything but a safe mode fallback?
Because every other operating system on the planet but the laughably-incompetent Xbox 360 and Ubuntu manage to figure out a way to boot properly instead?

Jesus Christ, Tdarcos.

There's a text file on an operating system. Any operating system. It says "SCREEN_RES 1920x1280." When the computer boots, it picks that resolution. The operating system will get a bit back if it can't get to that resolution because it isn't available, which is different than a monitor not being effectively plugged in at all.

Here are a list of operating systems and platforms that boot up correctly if they aren't active on a KVM:

Windows 7, Windows XP, Windows NT, Windows 98, Windows 95, Windows 3.11 Windows 3.01, DOS 6.22, PC-DOS, Xbox, PS, PS2, Dreamcast, Gamecube, Sega Genesis, NES, Super Nintendo, Red Hat Linux, BeOS, Your Goddamn Mother. I would expect that others would work as well, and really resisted putting down the list of every single operating system ever made except for the 360 (which incompetently doesn't do shit till it gets a signal back) and Ubuntu (which HAS A BUG out on it) but I thought I'd stick with ones I've run on KVM.

When I boot a machine on a KVM I always have it as the focus machine until the boot process completes. I've known that is a requirement since the first time I had a KVM, oh, 1995 or so.
That's fine for home use, but unrealistic and idiotic for anyone trying to get actual work done.

Yes, when Yahoo or Lycos or Hotbot turn off their computers for a maintenance issue, they have a guy they pay to sit there and turn them on one at a time so they boot with the proper resolution. Christ. It isn't a "requirement," some shithead at Ubuntu fucked up.

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:49 pm
by Ice Cream Jonsey
I'd like to apologize for the way I spoke to Tdarcos here. I thought he would know that I was just busting his chops because that's what we all do on this BBS. I seem to have offended him, however, and that makes me sad.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:57 am
by AArdvark
He's the one that called you stupid. Why are you apologizing?



THE
SOCIAL SKILLS
AARDVARK

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:09 am
by Flack
Plus, I see you avoided my question entirely.

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:41 pm
by bruce
Tdarcos wrote:
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Here's why I dislike my KVM switch, and it's not really the KVM switch's fault: Ubuntu boots up in 800x600 mode if it's plugged into the KVM switch and not the active PC when it boots.
Who would be stupid enough to boot a PC when not viewing the image in order to get the system to sync properly?\.
My machines pretty much reboot after power outages. Why should I be there watching them?

Bruce

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:46 am
by zen
If a box hard boots and nobody watches, did it post?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:33 pm
by bruce
zen wrote:If a box hard boots and nobody watches, did it post?
I POSTed your mom hard. You weren't watching, but she'll sell you the video.

Bruce

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:26 am
by Flack
There's a RAM joke in there, somewhere.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:49 am
by Tdarcos
Flack wrote:There's a RAM joke in there, somewhere.
Hard Core, indeed.

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:21 am
by Tdarcos
ICJ wrote:
Tdarcos wrote:Who would be stupid enough to boot a PC when not viewing the image in order to get the system to sync properly?
I'm going to give you a piece of information that not only leverages my 15 years in the information technology industry, but 26 years using a computer every single day of my life: you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.
How about I give you a piece of information that leverages my 34 years as a computer programmer and probably 30 years I've been using a computer nearly every single day, and if you knew what you were talking about you would have known this.

I'm telling you my experiences with the cheapest consumer-grade KVM switches sold in computer stores, because I'm the cheapest son-of-a-bitch in town and I buy the least expensive solution that works. (With the exception of safety issues; when it comes to safety I do not skimp and while I do consider costs, that becomes secondary and I will pay more to get what I need. Safety comes first; no exceptions. You can replace a broken device, you can't replace a lost finger, hand or arm.)

The KVMs I purchase are the type that sell for less than $20 per node, sometimes less than $10 per node. You, on the other hand, at your office, are dealing with high-end commercial grade KVM switches that cost upwards of several hundred dollars. (I routinely pay no more than perhaps $50 for a 4-machine KVM: the last one was $29; your office is probably buying switches that can be managed remotely with SNMP and cost upwards of $300). Of course, yours are going to have more features and manage the computers you're using better. The KVMs that I use have the habit of not syncing the video properly if you boot the machine without the monitor being focused for that machine. But, to not have to spend upwards of an extra $100 or more (some KVMs with a little better functionality are around $185), I'll pay that 45 seconds for the one or two reboots a month or less than my machines go through. During really hard usage I might have to reboot my computer twice a week.
ICJ wrote:The computer used to host this forum? Doesn't have an active monitor.
The computer I use as a file server? Has no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse and until I needed to borrow its wireless adapter, didn't even have an internet connection (no ethernet). Right now it runs on a wired connection to the router; it used to use a wireless connector but I borrowed it temporarily. I neither know nor care what resolution it boots into, I don't connect to it at all, I haven't had to since i got it setup six months ago so that it starts up automatically and all necessary services are running the few times I have to reboot it. Usually from a power failure as I don't bother having it on a UPS; my needs are not that critical. But this computer is on a UPS.
ICJ wrote:The thousands of computers Google uses in a farm to help you find, God help us all, whatever you are searching for? They don't have an active monitor.
No kidding. They don't need one either. You don't need a monitor on a web server. except when you're building the software stack or something goes wrong and you have to diagnose it, and maybe then you can use something like VNC to connect to it. (I'm not quite sure why, I can't get VNC to work on my Windows machines.)
ICJ wrote:AND YET, a proper picture comes up anyway if a tech needed to pop over to one physically.
No kidding. Google can afford to buy 100,000 identical machines in racks and configure them exactly the same. Or rather, Google can afford to buy the commodity hardware to build upwards of 100,000 identical machines in racks. (I don't know how many machines Google has, but to handle several million queries a second and do them as fast as possible I'm sure it's upwards of six figures. Possibly seven.) When every machine has the exact same hardware and software your chances of something going wrong except for hardware failure go way, way down.

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:45 pm
by The Happiness Engine
Tdarcos wrote: How about I give you a piece of information that leverages my 34 years as a computer programmer and probably 30 years I've been using a computer nearly every single day, and if you knew what you were talking about you would have known this.
Computer programmers can't operate computers. This is why sysadmins exist.

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:01 pm
by Ice Cream Jonsey
Tdarcos wrote:How about I give you a piece of information that leverages my 34 years as a computer programmer and probably 30 years I've been using a computer nearly every single day, and if you knew what you were talking about you would have known this.
You've got 34 years in as a computer programmer? Who are you doing computer programming for right now? Who is paying you to do that? You've been using one for that time, maybe. But this is like me driving a car to work every day for a few years and pronouncing myself an automotive engineer.

I'm telling you my experiences with the cheapest consumer-grade KVM switches sold in computer stores, because I'm the cheapest son-of-a-bitch in town and I buy the least expensive solution that works.
My KVM is one I grabbed from a company I used to work for, where I did the ordering for all the stuff we needed. It was expensive. $4-500. I am not saying this because I disagree with anything you said up here, I am just setting scope for everyone.


The KVMs that I use have the habit of not syncing the video properly if you boot the machine without the monitor being focused for that machine.
OK, at least we both agree that you were wrong to call anyone stupid on this subject. I accept your apology.

No kidding. Google can afford to buy 100,000 identical machines in racks and configure them exactly the same.
I read something the other day that said that the #2 manufacturer of computers in the US was Google, and they all go to Google. A fun fact, not sure if it's true, but I hadn't heard anything like it before.

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:00 pm
by Tdarcos
The Happiness Engine wrote:
Tdarcos wrote: How about I give you a piece of information that leverages my 34 years as a computer programmer and probably 30 years I've been using a computer nearly every single day, and if you knew what you were talking about you would have known this.
Computer programmers can't operate computers. This is why sysadmins exist.
I do. I have been a technical support person, a programmer, a mainframe computer operator, a systems programmer on a mainframe, and I've even built a computer from parts. My first computer that ran Windows 95 consisted of the computer from brand new parts I purchased, assembled, tested, then loaded Windows and installed it on the machine I built. I ran that computer for something like five years.

I only built a computer once because I found you can buy off-lease computers that are better for less money. Building a computer yourself only makes economic sense when you want high-end performance, then you can sometimes build a better machine for less than a commercial one.

I also do my own technical support and performance tuning, plus software installation, installation of networking hardware at the router and computer level, and adjustment of various parameters and settings. I've found and removed viruses from other people's computers. (In over 20 years of computing I've never once had a virus infect anything I run, and I don't even use anti-virus software.)

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:46 pm
by Tdarcos
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Tdarcos wrote:How about I give you a piece of information that leverages my 34 years as a computer programmer and probably 30 years I've been using a computer nearly every single day, and if you knew what you were talking about you would have known this.
You've got 34 years in as a computer programmer? Who are you doing computer programming for right now?


Different places. I answer bids on sites like http://www.vworker.com where someone will put in a request for a proposal. It's sometimes hard when you get people in India or Russia who can bid $2 an hour on a job and that's equivalent purchasing power to $200 a day here, but when someone wants esoteric work it's possible you can do reasonably well.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Who is paying you to do that? You've been using one for that time, maybe. But this is like me driving a car to work every day for a few years and pronouncing myself an automotive engineer.


I just finished one in which the guy wanted some tweaks to his website, and I fixed a number of errors including a nasty hole that would have allowed SQL injection.

Another one involved changing a program written in Fortran - it's really hard to find people who still know Fortran - to use an array in COMMON instead of passing the array in a subroutine call. I added an additional feature: I changed all of the write statements to use a defined constant instead of a unit number. Means when he goes to change to using, say, a subroutine to do graphic output in the future, he can search by the defined constant and thus change all the write statements.

My disability makes it no longer possible for me to work full time, but I can do part-time work.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
I'm telling you my experiences with the cheapest consumer-grade KVM switches sold in computer stores, because I'm the cheapest son-of-a-bitch in town and I buy the least expensive solution that works.
My KVM is one I grabbed from a company I used to work for, where I did the ordering for all the stuff we needed. It was expensive. $4-500. I am not saying this because I disagree with anything you said up here, I am just setting scope for everyone.
Okay, we're both right and both wrong, because we're coming from two different places, and I realized it afterwards. I'm coming from use of cheap KVMs I have to buy with my own money out of pocket; you were referring to much higher grade ones that you basically got as abandoned equipment.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
The KVMs that I use have the habit of not syncing the video properly if you boot the machine without the monitor being focused for that machine.
OK, at least we both agree that you were wrong to call anyone stupid on this subject. I accept your apology.


I kind of think the issue got a little overheated here. But I did not call you stupid; I asked "Who would be stupid enough to" and so I didn't actually insult anyone directly. I meant it as more of a rhetorical question than anything. I was presuming at the time the use of consumer grade KVMs such as I use, not realizing that there are better features in the horrendously expensive ones.

Sometimes you find that someone offers a horrendously expensive solution that doesn't give you a single advantage and in fact is worse than a much less expensive one.

I mean, I have a corporation and an LLC chartered in Colorado. Each year I have to file an annual report, which you can do over the web and costs $10 charged to your credit card. Do that, and your corporate/LLC charter is renewed for another year.

Or you can fill in the form and mail it in, that costs $120.

So some company sent me a letter in the mail saying that I could submit the annual renewal to them, and they would handle it for $250. Basically they're charging $100 to put a stamp on an envelope and mail the form in, or charging over $200 to fill out the exact same information that you supply to the Colorado Secretary of State's website with $10.

Absolutely no difference, and charging over $200 extra.

In case you're wondering why I have a Colorado corporation and an LLC, Colorado turns out to be the cheapest place in the country to incorporate or register an LLC. When I chartered them in 2007, it was only $25 and you did it using the Secretary of State's website and a credit card. Renewal was $10 a year after the first year.

Now, it's $50 to charter and still $10 to renew, you still use their website, and Colorado is still the cheapest place in the country to incorporate. Plus if you don't operate in Colorado you don't file state corporate income tax forms.

So for an extra $20 a year I have a spare corporation and an LLC available instantly if I need them. Plus every year I leave them means they're one year older which may be useful at some point for use in obtaining financing.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
No kidding. Google can afford to buy 100,000 identical machines in racks and configure them exactly the same.
I read something the other day that said that the #2 manufacturer of computers in the US was Google, and they all go to Google. A fun fact, not sure if it's true, but I hadn't heard anything like it before.
It would make sense. Google uses a lot of computers; when you're trying to get fast performance you need a lot of machines. However, Google might just be at the point where they could conceivably get better performance by switching to mainframe computers. I understand that in some cases where you do huge transaction volumes a mainframe may make more sense than lots of pizza boxes.

(For those not familiar with this term, a computer designed to run rack-mounted using one rack slot is referred to as a "pizza box" as that's about how big it is; it's basically a processor, a motherboard and memory. The hard drive and any other specialized components are often shared or multiplexed.)

Of course, Google has done a lot of tweaks with the stuff they do and bringing it over to mainframes might not work. They use their own file systems, and we're talking huge databases. It might be they tweaked their stuff for such optimal performance that a general purpose solution like Oracle or DB2 on a mainframe won't do as well as their highly-optimized special file system on specialized operating systems designed for enhancing web serving and special PC-type hardware.

The equivalent of a specialized BSD or Linux with Apache running in the Kernel and Google File System using threads rather than task switches might provide huge increases in performance over a typical LAMP stack.