Adventures in Solar

[Da King]

So, back in early summer, I had a door-to-door guy stop in and try to talk me into getting Solar. I am, by nature, skeptical of door-to-door salesman, but he made an interesting pitch. He set me up with an appointment to talk to someone who actually knew what they were talking about. I did some research on the company, read a lot of questionable stuff, and cancelled my appointment.

About a month ago, another rep from the same company stopped by again. Same pitch. I figured WTH, I can waste an hour of my time talking to someone to see what they have to say. So I did.

It's a local company (Happy Solar, who I'm pretty sure is a subsidiary of another local company, 3rd Roc Solar). They are a NYSERDA-certified installer of solar panel systems. They offer both sales and leases. Now that federal clean energy rebates have ended, they are really pushing their lease deals. They can still pass along significant savings because there are still commercial rebates available, and they can purchase the panels at a cheaper rate and pass them on in lease offers (they could not offer these same prices on sales).

I have to commit to a 25 year lease (which I will only do because I just replaced my roof last year). There is $0 install cost. My lease rate with them will be $99.50/month in year 1, with a 1.99% escalator in each following year. By comparison, my electric usage for this past month was $109, so I'm saving $10/month to start. The real savings come in the future. 3 years ago, I was paying 12.5c/kWh. Today, I am paying 19c/kWh. Thats a 50% increase in 3 years. We all know prices will never go down. With the demand for electricity increasing (new housing, data centers, etc), I expect it to continue seeing large increases. If RG&E averages a 6.5% increase per year, I will save about $50k over the next 25 years. I would not be surprised if their increases were even more than 6.5%.

I will not have an in-home battery to store electricity (so there is no benefit in a power outage). If I under-generate during a month compared to my usage, I buy the remaining from RG&E. If I over-generate, I sell it back to RG&E at the same rate I would buy it at (this is a NYS law). They essentially bank it for me. If I overproduce this month and underproduce next month, I'm buying back my own electricity and dont pay for it. At the end of the year, if I have a surplus, RG&E will settle up with me and pay me for anything extra that I produced that year.

Because it is a lease deal, they still own the panels. If something happens to one of them, they are contractually obligated to (a) fix it, or (b) pay me back for the amount of energy it is SUPPOSED to be producing, but is not.

After 5 years, I have the option to buy out the lease. They will come out and make me an offer. I am not yet sure if I will take advantage of this or not. There are pros and cons of owning vs leasing. TBD.

NYS also offers tax rebates on solar installations, even for leases. I SHOULD get somewhere between $4k-$5k back on my taxes for the project.

I am a skeptical person by nature. I asked a MILLION questions. I can't poke holes anywhere in this entire process. My sales guy (and yes, I realize he's in sales) kept telling how NYS is the most solar-friendly state in the country, and most people are as skeptical as me, and afterwards, nobody regrets it.

I'm just terrified about where electricity prices are going. I plan to die in this house, so I have no issues with trying to sell a house with leased solar, etc. I think this is a can't-lose situation, unless something magically makes electricity dirt cheap. I dont see that happening.

So, tomorrow is my site survey. After that, they go to the town to get the permitting process done. After that, they schedule the install. Realistically, it wont be before January, thanks to the speed of bureaucracy. But it's coming.

That'll pair well with the Level2 EV charger that I'm getting installed tomorrow too. I will probably charge my car at home more often now.

Have any questions? Ask away!

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

This energy - so we are clear - it's coming from the Sun you say?

That yellow star in the sky? That one? Or others too? How do they ensure it's just the one star?

[Casual Observer]

So, back in early summer, I had a door-to-door guy stop in and try to talk me into getting Solar. I am, by nature, skeptical of door-to-door salesman, but he made an interesting pitch. He set me up with an appointment to talk to someone who actually knew what they were talking about. I did some research on the company, read a lot of questionable stuff, and cancelled my appointment.

About a month ago, another rep from the same company stopped by again. Same pitch. I figured WTH, I can waste an hour of my time talking to someone to see what they have to say. So I did.

It's a local company (Happy Solar, who I'm pretty sure is a subsidiary of another local company, 3rd Roc Solar). They are a NYSERDA-certified installer of solar panel systems. They offer both sales and leases. Now that federal clean energy rebates have ended, they are really pushing their lease deals. They can still pass along significant savings because there are still commercial rebates available, and they can purchase the panels at a cheaper rate and pass them on in lease offers (they could not offer these same prices on sales).

I have to commit to a 25 year lease (which I will only do because I just replaced my roof last year). There is $0 install cost. My lease rate with them will be $99.50/month in year 1, with a 1.99% escalator in each following year. By comparison, my electric usage for this past month was $109, so I'm saving $10/month to start. The real savings come in the future. 3 years ago, I was paying 12.5c/kWh. Today, I am paying 19c/kWh. Thats a 50% increase in 3 years. We all know prices will never go down. With the demand for electricity increasing (new housing, data centers, etc), I expect it to continue seeing large increases. If RG&E averages a 6.5% increase per year, I will save about $50k over the next 25 years. I would not be surprised if their increases were even more than 6.5%.

I will not have an in-home battery to store electricity (so there is no benefit in a power outage). If I under-generate during a month compared to my usage, I buy the remaining from RG&E. If I over-generate, I sell it back to RG&E at the same rate I would buy it at (this is a NYS law). They essentially bank it for me. If I overproduce this month and underproduce next month, I'm buying back my own electricity and dont pay for it. At the end of the year, if I have a surplus, RG&E will settle up with me and pay me for anything extra that I produced that year.

Because it is a lease deal, they still own the panels. If something happens to one of them, they are contractually obligated to (a) fix it, or (b) pay me back for the amount of energy it is SUPPOSED to be producing, but is not.

After 5 years, I have the option to buy out the lease. They will come out and make me an offer. I am not yet sure if I will take advantage of this or not. There are pros and cons of owning vs leasing. TBD.

NYS also offers tax rebates on solar installations, even for leases. I SHOULD get somewhere between $4k-$5k back on my taxes for the project.

I am a skeptical person by nature. I asked a MILLION questions. I can't poke holes anywhere in this entire process. My sales guy (and yes, I realize he's in sales) kept telling how NYS is the most solar-friendly state in the country, and most people are as skeptical as me, and afterwards, nobody regrets it.

I'm just terrified about where electricity prices are going. I plan to die in this house, so I have no issues with trying to sell a house with leased solar, etc. I think this is a can't-lose situation, unless something magically makes electricity dirt cheap. I dont see that happening.

So, tomorrow is my site survey. After that, they go to the town to get the permitting process done. After that, they schedule the install. Realistically, it wont be before January, thanks to the speed of bureaucracy. But it's coming.

That'll pair well with the Level2 EV charger that I'm getting installed tomorrow too. I will probably charge my car at home more often now.

Have any questions? Ask away!

[Casual Observer]

oops, this Cloudflare thing is killing me here, oh well

Selling Solar is a total disaster still. Most "solar companies" are just roofing contractors. Contractors don't need to sell, they get more than enough calls. What happens when they need to sell a product thats new to them and their customer base and nowhere near a sure thing. You've got "boiler rooms" around the country cracking whips to poor cold callers following up on door knocks. You were lucky, it could have been way more intrusive.

Sounds like you hade one of the few larger solar companies with at least the right sales mindset. Probably saved you some hassle.

You mentioned "backups", one thing a lot of people don't know (certainly your big brain knows already) - without a battery backup you CAN NOT use your solar to power your house in a emergency. If the grid is down your solar is disabled without a battery. Many folks in CA got burned by this (deliberate wildfire pun)

Only $10 a month savings? Awful. In California we were estimating $100 - $150 a month. Besides upstate weather, your house may have too many trees or the roof pointed in the wrong direction. I don't know where you live or I'd check it on Google Sat but in general you want your roof aligned as close to N-S as possible or else E-W facing gets about 15–25% less energy. If I were selling solar I'd start with this search and only call folks who get the most value instead of sending someone random door to door I'd target with a clear message of the value to them to start instead of after the fact researching it. Last solar jail boiler room i was in, only after the door knock and followup call did they send someone out to actually estimate - backwards process I think.

You probably made the absolutely correct choice!

[Casual Observer]

Pretty sure most rebates hinge on buying outright, maybe NYS is diff.

[Da King]

This energy - so we are clear - it's coming from the Sun you say?

That yellow star in the sky? That one? Or others too? How do they ensure it's just the one star?

Hmm. I did not inquire about the SOURCE of this energy. I was just promised magic panels that generate electricity.

[Da King]

Selling Solar is a total disaster still. Most "solar companies" are just roofing contractors.

I have heard this multiple times, but the main solar companies that I know of in Rochester are pure solar plays (Greenspark being the biggest name).

Anyone who buys solar from a roofing company is asking for it.

You mentioned "backups", one thing a lot of people don't know (certainly your big brain knows already) - without a battery backup you CAN NOT use your solar to power your house in a emergency. If the grid is down your solar is disabled without a battery. Many folks in CA got burned by this (deliberate wildfire pun)

I would have liked the idea of battery storage, but (a) I'm pretty sure that would only come with a purchase, not a lease, and (b) I'm skeptical about the lifespan of batteries that are CONSTANTLY being filled/drained, and (c) that would add about $10k to the cost.

Only $10 a month savings? Awful. In California we were estimating $100 - $150 a month.

My entire electric bill is only about $100/month

Besides upstate weather, your house may have too many trees or the roof pointed in the wrong direction. I don't know where you live or I'd check it on Google Sat but in general you want your roof aligned as close to N-S as possible or else E-W facing gets about 15–25% less energy.

Thank you for educating me on solar. These are totally things that my sales guy did not consider!

My back yard faces directly south, with no tree issues at all. My layout is more efficient than 97% of setups in the area.

[Flack]

I don't know too much about residential solar. I do have solar panels on top of my van and portable solar panels.

I believe most home roof solar panels now have a lifespan of 25-30 years. That's better than the old ones that were like 10-15 years.

When I added a second panel to my van (they're both 200 watts) I did a deep dive into series vs. parallel wiring. One doubles the watts and the other doubles the amps. When in parallel, each panel operates separately but because you're doubling the amps you have to upgrade your wiring and stuff. Wiring in series is much simpler, but the downside is you end up with essentially one big panel. The effect that he tiniest bit of shade has on a panel is mindblowing. Literally laying a pencil on one of my panels dropped the input from about 300w to 5w. Anyway from what I understand, large panel configurations are a combination of banks of panels wired in series and then each bank wired in parallel. Just be sure to keep leaves and stuff off them.

We had a huge hail storm blow through earlier this year, one of those freak ones that broke people's windshields (ours) and caused everybody to get new rooves. The local news stations were filled with stories about people with solar panels that got smashed and the companies that sold them just a few years ago are gone (or at least changed names). I hope there's some sort of deal where if they disappear the warranty fails over.

I get a hard on every time I walk out to my van and see the battery sitting at 100% with my fridge humming along, all from solar. I hope the home install works out. I'd love to do it someday myself.

[Casual Observer]

My back yard faces directly south, with no tree issues at all. My layout is more efficient than 97% of setups in the area.

Probably mostly the weather I bet but the lease is the real problem. It locks you in then at the end you don't even own the panels, you can buy them at depreciated prices or they're happy to rip them off your roof and leave sealed holes all over your beautiful roof. You've got amazing credit certainly, if you ever choose this please choose buy option because YOU get the rebates and after what 10years you're getting free extra power for the next 15.

Wow I miss Roch prices badly, just my electricity bill is like $160 a month and be barely even use heat.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

This energy - so we are clear - it's coming from the Sun you say?

That yellow star in the sky? That one? Or others too? How do they ensure it's just the one star?

Hmm. I did not inquire about the SOURCE of this energy. I was just promised magic panels that generate electricity.

Understood. Most of these places let you pick three valid stars. Most people pick Proxima Centauri, Alpha Centauri and the Sun. Good choices. Sometimes people go for one of the ones in one of the dippers. One guy out here submitted all three stars in Orion's belt. Left the Sun off completely. He's not getting jack shit out of this. Huge fucking L, he is paying the same prices. What a bag fumble. A lot of people think that the stars only provide the energy at night, but they don't, it all goes to the collector units. Like Flack said, if you start leaving stuff on the panels it kills the through-put. We were accidentally keeping lead bars up there.

[Da King]

I believe most home roof solar panels now have a lifespan of 25-30 years.

This is true. The lease I have is for 25 years, but the panels themselves are warrantied for 30 years. They are supposed to still have 90% capacity after 30 years. If they dont, the solar company is contractually bound to replace them.

I hope there's some sort of deal where if they disappear the warranty fails over.

Well, if there's not, then I haven't been making lease payments to anyone either, so it may be a wash. :)

When I added a second panel to my van (they're both 200 watts) I did a deep dive into series vs. parallel wiring. One doubles the watts and the other doubles the amps. When in parallel, each panel operates separately but because you're doubling the amps you have to upgrade your wiring and stuff. Wiring in series is much simpler, but the downside is you end up with essentially one big panel. The effect that he tiniest bit of shade has on a panel is mindblowing. Literally laying a pencil on one of my panels dropped the input from about 300w to 5w. Anyway from what I understand, large panel configurations are a combination of banks of panels wired in series and then each bank wired in parallel. Just be sure to keep leaves and stuff off them.

This is why I dont understand electricity. Watts and amps and volts and stuff. Its all very confusing.

[Da King]

Probably mostly the weather I bet but the lease is the real problem. It locks you in then at the end you don't even own the panels, you can buy them at depreciated prices or they're happy to rip them off your roof and leave sealed holes all over your beautiful roof. You've got amazing credit certainly, if you ever choose this please choose buy option because YOU get the rebates and after what 10years you're getting free extra power for the next 15.

I can buy out the panels anytime after 5 years. The sales guy was estimating about $9k to buy them after 5. I'm sure that price drops steadily after that. I have not yet decided if I will buy them out. At $100/month, it would be 90 months (7 1/2 years) to cover a $9k buyout. But then I lose the leasing company's responsibility to keep it working. It's almost like an insurance policy. Not sure if I'll roll the dice or not.

My roof was replaced last year. The amazing thing is, right around the time that my lease is over, I'll need to replace my roof. The timing will be ideal.

The rebates are applied when the solar panels are purchased from the manufacturer. The leasing company realized those rebates, and pass the savings on to me in my lease price. There are no additional rebates when buying out the lease.

[Da King]

Understood. Most of these places let you pick three valid stars. Most people pick Proxima Centauri, Alpha Centauri and the Sun. Good choices. Sometimes people go for one of the ones in one of the dippers. One guy out here submitted all three stars in Orion's belt. Left the Sun off completely. He's not getting jack shit out of this. Huge fucking L, he is paying the same prices. What a bag fumble. A lot of people think that the stars only provide the energy at night, but they don't, it all goes to the collector units. Like Flack said, if you start leaving stuff on the panels it kills the through-put. We were accidentally keeping lead bars up there.

This is the best advice I've gotten so far on this journey. Would it be advisable to name a star after myself from one of those star registry websites, and then choose that one??

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Might we talk generators here?

Our electricity co-op is shit. We lost power Wednesday night at 9:45PM, got it back althe next day, Thursday, at 5PM. They turned it off again at 11PM Thursday and it is still off.

Was it intentional? Who knows, they won't tell us.

So I'm looking at natural gas generators.

[AArdvark]

Say, if you work from home won't a loss of power be detrimental to your hours?

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Yeah. To be honest, I'm on salary and I have worked so many hours over what is reasonable for my boss over the years, I think everyone is cool with my limited availability.

I was able to charge my devices last night when it came on at 5PM but it was a nasty thing to see it shut off at 11. They are talking about intentional outages because of the risk of wildfires. Sure. No prob.

But fucking tell people. Have a plan.

[AArdvark]

Don't you kinda need electricity during the winter? Doesn't it get all brrr up in the mountains?

[Da King]

Our electricity co-op is shit.

What is an "electricity co-op"?

Do you not buy your electricity from a company like RG&E?

[Da King]

On Wednesday, 3/18, the framing for my panels and my electrical panel were installed. Lets just say, its probably a good thing ICE was not in the neighborhood. Neither of the fine young gentlemen that were here that day spoke a lick of English. One of them finally pulled out his phone and we communicated via Google Translate. It was... borderline acceptable.

On Friday, 3/20, crew #2 showed up to install the panels themselves. At least one of these guys spoke somewhat coherent English. They did a nice job.

And I am now harvesting the power of the sun!

Monday was largely rainy. Tuesday and Wednesday had a fair amount of sun. Today was kinda sunny until early afternoon, and then crappy the rest of the day. And I appear to be generating more electricity than I use at this point! I can only imagine how much better I'll do when we have longer and sunnier days.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Our electricity co-op is shit.

What is an "electricity co-op"?

Do you not buy your electricity from a company like RG&E?

Great question! I don't know. The RG&E equivalent is called Xcel Energy. Our co-op depends on them. I don't know what they offer or why they exist.