ND reviewed twice in SPAG

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

SPAG #38 can be viewed on-line... right here!


It should be noted that there are diabolical spoilers later in this thread (but not on SPAG).

[pinback]

There has now been one SPAG issue for every megabyte of the ND download package!

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Also, if Sam or Jeff are out there, I would like to express my gratitude for them writing a review on my game. It is deeply appreciated. Reviews are the gold coins of the indie text game maker's life.

(Does "currency" work better than gold coins? I really like gold coins, though.)

Regardless!

There has now been one SPAG issue for every megabyte of the ND download package!

There have also now been 15.2 issues of SPAG for every star you gave ND!

[Lysander]

Okay, Robb, I have a question. Are there any bugs you know of that you haven't implamented yet, little fixes you've been meaning to do? I ask, because iA don't want to review the game until a final version of it is released--I cannot count the number of times i've read a review of an earlier release of a game and thought "How dare you mark him down for that, he *fixed* that already, you cretin!"

While we're on the subject, i have a tad of bitching to do related to the spectre puzle and the ending.

Personally, i think it's cool that the ending is a downer, from a purely artistic standpoint. As a player, I'm anguished--which is exactly what I should be feeling. And there's got to be something said for replaying it--deciding there's just nothing youcan do, going back, struggling, struggling, and finally discovering the solution--only to find that it didn't really change anything as far as Audrey and Duffie's relationship was concerned. Life sucks, and it isn't a game; there is no "You have solved the last point and you are teh winnar!11!"

This, however, *is* a video game. It's harsh, but it's the truth. And from a gaming standpoint, that decision is extremely annoying. If it were decently hinted I wouldn't mind so much, but it's not. First of all it's the only optional puzzle in the game, leading players to think it's unsolvable, and secondly it's got to be one of the most obscure puzzles I've seen *anywhere*, let alone a Robb Sherwin game. I mean, first of all, in order to *find* the blood you need (TM; (C) 2003 Jack Sparrow, all rights reserved) you need to poke around a room that most people aren't going to think of sticking around in, and then looking in an object that most people aren't going to think of looking in--*especially* considering that at that particular moment that they're in the room there's a *timer* going on, and I really doubt that anyone would want to go back down there and look. ("Thank God, I have just destroyed the monster and cured my wounds! WEhat should I do now? I think I'll go back into the dark, dank dungeon in case there are any more things I need to kill!" Doesn't seem very logical to me. And furthermore, the way in which you use it is not at all clear. Okay, if you talk to the spectre you can find out that he wants blood, but there is absolutely no guarantee from a story standpoint that giving the spectre the bag of blood will help Casey--in fact, it seems to be the exact opposite from the initial text, which is that he takes it and disappears. It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint because that is the only action to take with the blood that does anthing, but from a story standpoint--and this is more of a story-oriented game than a game-oriented game--there is no way of guessing that he's going to come back magically to help you save Casey's life.

And, again, this *is* a video game. There *should* be *some* reward for the player for doing a good job. I mean, he saves everyone's lives several times over and all he gets for it is a shit job, a left girlfriend and a dead kid. That just sucks. Granted, the ending note is hopeful, not despairing, so there's that. But *still*. If this was the type of thing that no one could do anythign about then it is okay, but Duffie is just a schmuck. It's obvious to *everyone* who's playing the game that what he's doing is a stupid idea that will lose him a girl, so when it eventually happens, the player's reaction is, more often than not, "Well what did you expect, you jackass?" This type of catharsass is perfectly fine in pros, but in IF--where you are supposed to *be* that guy--it's incredibly frustrating. Because the environment in the game otherwise is so well done that the player is almost tricked into caring. The result being, when you get a shitty ending, the response of the player is outrage; "If I was in that position I would have done so many things differently! It's not my fault, it's the author's fault! Why did he have to stick me with such shitty choices?" The ending itself is powerful; taken as a part of the game's whole, it is the worst portion of the game.

Think on this, won't y ou?

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Okay, Robb, I have a question. Are there any bugs you know of that you haven't implamented yet, little fixes you've been meaning to do?

Unless there are actions that a player can take that would prevent the game from being solved, then no, there won't be another version of it.

This, however, *is* a video game. It's harsh, but it's the truth. And from a gaming standpoint, that decision is extremely annoying.

Oh! Well, I should say that I did not presume that anyone would play through it a second time. I thought it wrapped itself up in a way that ... well, OK, I did not anticipate this.

If it were decently hinted I wouldn't mind so much, but it's not. First of all it's the only optional puzzle in the game, leading players to think it's unsolvable, and secondly it's got to be one of the most obscure puzzles I've seen *anywhere*, let alone a Robb Sherwin game.

I should clarify a point on this. Originally, the character that benefits from what we are discussing was not able to survive the game at all. However, I thought that there should maybe be a way to save her... but it wouldn't be obvious and it wouldn't be so nicely solvable, necessarily. (Also, I wasn't going to tell anyone about it, but I did for Emily, who was the first person who asked. So I didn't do a very good job of letting the happenstance we are discussing get out there in a method that involved Easter Egg hunts and so forth. I just blabbed it right away.)

I mean, first of all, in order to *find* the blood you need...

Yes, but it was supposed to be optional, and mostly unfound. (But people really wanted to find it, I found out later.)

And furthermore, the way in which you use it is not at all clear. Okay, if you talk to the spectre you can find out that he wants blood, but there is absolutely no guarantee from a story standpoint that giving the spectre the bag of blood will help Casey--in fact, it seems to be the exact opposite from the initial text, which is that he takes it and disappears. It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint because that is the only action to take with the blood that does anthing, but from a story standpoint--and this is more of a story-oriented game than a game-oriented game--there is no way of guessing that he's going to come back magically to help you save Casey's life.

Well, true, but the spectre was also the only monster in the game that didn't immediately attack you. The player needed someplace cold to store the blood and still make it out of the Mall with it accessible at a later point -- who better to give it to than someone who is achingly cold and not consumed with the desire to kill everything living upon sight, y'know? But I hear what you're saying, and it really is the player's opinion that counts as to what was bad or solid gaming. I'm with you.

If this was the type of thing that no one could do anythign about then it is okay, but Duffie is just a schmuck. It's obvious to *everyone* who's playing the game that what he's doing is a stupid idea that will lose him a girl, so when it eventually happens, the player's reaction is, more often than not, "Well what did you expect, you jackass?"

That would be the expected response, yeah.

Here's the deal with Necrotic Drift: it was not beyond my noticing that the games I was writing seemed to resonate really well with the 18-24 crowd. And that crowd (certainly when I was a member of it) is absolutely terrible to one another, usually unknowingly, when it comes to the opposite sex (or whatever gender you fancy, of course). It is ROUGH out there. There are lots of things that kids of that age can do as well as adults: they can play professional basketball and hockey, they can play minor league baseball very well, they can make music, they can chew food and hold jobs and sometimes buy houses. Some of them can write (I certainly couldn't at that age) but almost all of them eventually and ultimately treat their girlfriends and boyfriends and everything in between in a very terrible manner.

Fallacy of Dawn had a protagonist that couldn't remember anything, and in a way Delarion was someone who had characteristics that I would long to have. Jarret, however, remembers everything, is completely oblivious to the world around him and the people closest too him, has stagnated in many ways and has generally accepted the role of a "loser," though he would be the first to tell you how much confidence he had in himself. I guess there's no need to belabor the point of how he, in turn, relates to me.

The bit you're speaking of in ND can't change -- sure, you can save a member of your party, maybe, but that was more based on me giving myself an out if I wanted to put the character of Casey into a third video game at some point. But while the ending of this game is wholly static, it's not an ending or a situation that I hope for any of the kids in the (I hate to say "demographic," but) demographic that my games seemed to do well in. *You* don't have to be as unaware of your surroundings or as poor with personal relations as Jarret is. *You* don't have to live with regret for so long that you wish you could mindwipe yourself just to be able to get to sleep in a peaceful and timely manner, ignorant of some of the things you've done to people, women, whatever that you've cared about. Sure, both sexes are equally cruel to each other in that awkward age, but what I hope to illustrate is that it's worth at least striving for decency.

And on that note:

Because the environment in the game otherwise is so well done that the player is almost tricked into caring. The result being, when you get a shitty ending, the response of the player is outrage; "If I was in that position I would have done so many things differently! It's not my fault, it's the author's fault! Why did he have to stick me with such shitty choices?" The ending itself is powerful; taken as a part of the game's whole, it is the worst portion of the game.

Yeah. But this is the thing, my friend -- just recall as you get older that you do have choices, and you will have choices, and while there won't be a cacophony of undead hanging around you physically if you make every bad choice you can make, it's at least been my experience that you have a mental graveyard of Things That Won't Die if you fuck up as badly and as often towards people as I did in that age which is just as tough to escape. If that sort of thing got through at all in that little video game, then I think I did what was aiming for.

But I think there's a way out though, maybe, in learning from the experience of others. And what better way to walk a mile in a man's shoes than to have to hit >n all the while to get there?

Think on this, won't y ou?

You betcha. =)

[Debaser]

I saved "the character" the first time through, but only because I had an obsessive need to do something with every monster before I left the mall. I don't know how long I dicked around with the Revenant trying to get him to do something useful for me besides commit honorable seppuku.

Aside from whatever else I get out of this place, it's kind of interesting in a Lit 101 sort of way to "know" you, Robb, before/after playing these things. Like when I was reading Formerly..., within three panels of BG and BB's first scene together I was immediately thinking of Avenger and Hollywood... or Avandre and Keegan... or, you know, whoever and whoever.

So it's always cool to read these little behind the scenes snippets. This one and CDJ always kind of struck me as the two most personal games you've written.

It occurs to me now on what will seem like a completely unrelated note that you should stuff Planescape: Torment as high on your "Ways to Waste Time" queue as you can manage. I get that you don't play video games quite as much as you used and that it's kind of a hefty time investment for a guy who's developed friends and a life and a consuming hobby since 1997 but, what was previously just a General Good Game Recommendation is now a Personal Recommendation. If you get a chance, at all, load it up.

[Lysander]

I here what you're saying, RobB, and those are very noble motivations. However, as I said, this is a game. The perspective is important in this kind of thing; in a story you have to watch a character go down a pre-set path, watch him making all the stupid fuckups he makes and exclaming "No! NO! You idiot!" So the type of message you're going for would work *perfectly* in a story medium. But this is not a story. This is IF. In IF, you are supposed to *be* that player; and when you are supposed to be someone, it's very jarring to realize that your character's life is going down the shitter and there's nothing you can do to stop it--because that is the point of a video game, when things go bad you're supposed to try and help the things go good again. And when the problems are with *you*, and the game does not permit you to fix *yourself* even when a solution is stamped acrosss your vision with bright red letters and a parenthetical aside that say DO THIS, YOU MORON!!! the player gets, and understandably in my oppinion, a tad bit annoyed. I mean, if the player can figure out a way to fix his character, you're speaking to the converted, and all the converted want to do is make the player figure out what he's doing is dumb. ANd he *can't*. Not because the player's oblivious, but because the author has made the game so that the player can't be anything but oblivious.

[Lysander]

...Robb, when's the last time you've ever put an easter egg into one of your games?

That's what I thought.

The player, when seing that puzzle, is not going t o think 'easter egg! Truly, I am a master among Sherwinian text players!' he will think 'Damn, *that* was indirect.' I mean, it's a "main" character dying. That's the sort of thing that most people expect *can* be solved, so they will be looking for a way to solve it; hindsight is 20-20, and what I'm seing on the newsgroup is a lot of people not getting it at all. I mean, whenn I was *betatesting* the thing I couldn't figure it out for the life of me--I probably wouldn't have thought to look in the coffin was i not, as I say, beta testing. I mean, if it's an easter egg, fine, but it's not *handled* like an easter egg.

[bruce]

Yeah. But this is the thing, my friend -- just recall as you get older that you do have choices, and you will have choices, and while there won't be a cacophony of undead hanging around you physically if you make every bad choice you can make, it's at least been my experience that you have a mental graveyard of Things That Won't Die if you fuck up as badly and as often towards people as I did in that age which is just as tough to escape. If that sort of thing got through at all in that little video game, then I think I did what was aiming for.

So it's not a Survival Horror game, it's The Horror Of Survival as a game?

I second the recommendation to play Planescape:Torment. Hell, <i>I</i> just played it all the way through again.

And I want to know what your answer is, when you get to the right point in the game. Mine, to no one's surprise, is "regret."

Bruce

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

I saved "the character" the first time through, but only because I had an obsessive need to do something with every monster before I left the mall. I don't know how long I dicked around with the Revenant trying to get him to do something useful for me besides commit honorable seppuku.

Hahah, yeah, he blew up nicely, didn't he?

I think he was an alternate solution to the vampire, wasn't he? But you had to meet the vampire before that dialogue option came up. I think I just wanted there to be another way to go if the garlic was chewed on, but then that ended up not defeating the vampire but just keeping her at bay.

Aside from whatever else I get out of this place, it's kind of interesting in a Lit 101 sort of way to "know" you, Robb, before/after playing these things. Like when I was reading Formerly..., within three panels of BG and BB's first scene together I was immediately thinking of Avenger and Hollywood... or Avandre and Keegan... or, you know, whoever and whoever.

True. I hadn't wanted Gibs to be a sidekick character, especially since he is mightier and more in shape than Duffy. Duffy should be his sidekick, perhaps! But then, not. The sidekick is useful in the first person game to have someone to talk to, but the game I am trying to deliver to Mike Sousa currently isn't in the first person, so that sort of solves that for now. Maybe his sidekick will be the moon or something, and he can bray at it, as a werewolf ex-marine rogue cop with a machinegun for a hand. Who can tell, who can tell.

So it's always cool to read these little behind the scenes snippets. This one and CDJ always kind of struck me as the two most personal games you've written.

That would be fair.

(The least personal was the Hammurabi port, probably.)

It occurs to me now on what will seem like a completely unrelated note that you should stuff Planescape: Torment as high on your "Ways to Waste Time" queue as you can manage. I get that you don't play video games quite as much as you used and that it's kind of a hefty time investment for a guy who's developed friends and a life and a consuming hobby since 1997 but, what was previously just a General Good Game Recommendation is now a Personal Recommendation. If you get a chance, at all, load it up.

I "have" a "copy" of it "somewhere" if you're digging my ditch here, and I think you "are." I only haven't ever played it because so much of my time was spent on Baldur's Gate II, one of the finest and longest and did I mention longest games ever made, which sort of sapped my will to dork about with that system again. But I get the sense that it's something I'd like.

How about this, my current gaming queue includes Doom III and your WIP. After that... it's Torment!!! (But if I sap back on the couch and console it up, don't hold it against me.)

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

And again, sorry for not sending those ND packages out yet. There really is no excuse. I have some labels done, but will do ALL of them tonight.

For what it's worth I have a Gothic Auction I haven't paid on yet either, so it's not just you guys.

[Lysander]

Oh, so in other words you're so appreciative of our efforts that you're saving our complamentary packages until last? Yeah, I really dig that, RobB. Yeesh. (Kidding, natch.)

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

I was hoping for a sale or something to merge with the betatest packages. But!! It's been rough out there. My advice to Kent was to not make the same exact game perfectly free as a download from your website to help out with this "selling" thing.

[Lysander]

Yeah, that'd be a good one.
Course, if oyu had asked me, I would've said the exact same thing. And then you wouldn't be having this problem. Although, arguably, you'd have people bitching "Paying mony for a 38-MB download! And an IF game! 0/5 WORST GEAME EVVAR!111!" or some similar retarded bitching. So, eh.

[maga]

Thanks, Robb; hooray for games worth reviewing.

But this is not a story. This is IF.

Um. You see the 'F' bit of 'IF'. That would make it fiction. In other words: a story.

[Worm]

I think Lysander means it's not a traditional story and ultimately not being able to affect the end of if sort of fucks up the interactive part. I really liked the ending, but I don't see how multiple ones would have worked.

[Lysander]

I think Lysander means it's not a traditional story and ultimately not being able to affect the end of if sort of fucks up the interactive part.

Yeah, basically.

I really liked the ending, but I don't see how multiple ones would have worked.

I liked the ending, too, from an aesthetic standpoint, and if it were from a book or a movie or something it would be beautiful. The thing is, when you've played an IF game--especially one so focused on character study like this one is--the player would like to think that he has accomplished something major. And in this case he hasn't. I mean, he's turned his life around, granted, but it's almost too little too late. ANd it's not that major a thing, because the player, if he was not limmited by the choices put into the game, would have been able to save it in the first few scenes. Okay, because i've just come down from a Smith-movie extravaganza, I'll speak in those terms. This game is Mallrats. The PC is the guy who gets dumped because a relative of his girlfriend accidentally kills herself after taking one of his suggestions and all he cares about is the fact that she won't go to Florida with him. Pang is the other dude who is always playing his Sega. Criswell is the creepy pseudo-rapist guy and Gibs is either Jay or the brutally honest guy from Clerks. At the end of hte movie they all go through a catharsas and get their girls back. Okay. Fine. No problem. I expected this was how it would be from the very beginning and was not too impressed at first, but the movie managed to still entertain the pants off me regardless. But the entertainment factor--other than watching Silent Bob use jedi mind powers--is watching these two schmucks go through a self-observation process to finally realize what complete schmucks they've been. That's okay. When you're watching that happen, it's fine. But in IF, you're supposed to *be* that guy. So you're the observer and the active participant. So you as a player can see exactly what's happening, and when the expected outcome occurs at the end the reaction of the player is going to be "No shit, fuckin' *finally*." But on the other hand, as an observer, you are forced to watch the events unfold, like an unavoidable car crash--but, again, you're not only forced to watch it happen, but you're forced to make it happen--and for no other reason than your character's stubborn cluelessness. It's almost like Shade, for God's sake. Robb, buddy, trust me on this, you do not want people comparing the scenario of a clueless guy losing his girlfriend to the unwinable sort of hell that is Andrew Plotkin's shade. Okay? You just don't.

[Worm]

Seriously man, I hold no grudge with you; but, you've got to start typing up your posts better. They are really near unreadable.

[AArdvark]

Hey.....This game is based on a true story, aint it...


It rings a little...too closely to be all made up.




THE
ROBb DA VINCI CODE
AARDVARK

[Worm]

If Robb had a kid it would explain MONKEY MONKEY.