I hate real-time strategy games.

Worm · Post by **Worm** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:10 pm

I realized this fact well playing Metal Fatigue which I enjoy but I recently figure out why I enjoy it. You can build giant robots ... the game requires no skill and is simply about building fast, getting up turrets, then attacking quickly. Can anyone reccomend one RTS that isn't all horseshit? I simply believe all of them suck. WC3 was just like WC2 which was just like WC1 which was no different from Star Craft which I hate. AoE I hate too and any incarnations. So do any RTS games not suck?

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:02 pm

A group of friends I had in high school insisted WC1 was inherently different and superior to WC2 because units tended to cost a shitload more and therefore you didn't have an army of knights swamping you at the end of the game. I prefered WC2, because, well, I could get an army of knights to swamp you without having to wait three hours for the resources to harvest; but ultimately I just wanted to play something that didn't consist of interminable periods of waiting follwed by periods of having to keep track of a bunch of individual units in a fast paced environment.

While WC3 didn't necessarily speciate from its predators, well neither have most genres. Either you enjoy the basic premise of their gameplay or you don't.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:22 pm

Worm wrote:I realized this fact well playing Metal Fatigue which I enjoy but I recently figure out why I enjoy it. You can build giant robots ... the game requires no skill and is simply about building fast, getting up turrets, then attacking quickly. Can anyone reccomend one RTS that isn't all horseshit? I simply believe all of them suck. WC3 was just like WC2 which was just like WC1 which was no different from Star Craft which I hate. AoE I hate too and any incarnations. So do any RTS games not suck?

Ice Cream Jonsey's Real Time Strategy Countdown!!!!

In the order I've played them:

1) Warcraft II. I have mentioned this before, but when I got ahold of this for the first time, I played it and did absolutely nothing else for three days. One of the greatest games ever made, in my opinion, but the thing is, I feel that way because I played it first. If you've never played a RTS game before -- if you've never played anything like it -- and you sit down and go through that one, it's just pure sex witha mouse. Didn't finish it, though, as I grew tired of having to completely create my structures and such for every mission.

2) Command & Conquer: Red Alert. There was a time where you could not read a gaming magazine or go for what passed as the Internet without someone saying that either Red Alert sucked and WC2 rocked or vice versa. Again, a fantastic game. Stopped playing it because I grew tired of having to completely create my structures and such for every mission.

3) Command & Conquer: It definitely does have the best installer ever. Game itself isn't bad either, but the graphics are almost so blocky to impact on the fun you can have with it. Stopped playing it because I grew tired of having to completely create my structures and such for every mission.

4) Myth: Well, they eliminated resource gathering. It's now about tactics, biznatches!! Except... there were none. This game is a complete pile of shit and I hated both it, Bungie and Mac Users for a long, long time solely because of it. Also: CASUALITY! CASUALITY! CASUALITY! That was the "You must gather your party before venturing forth" before Baldur's Gate came out.

5) Starcraft: OK, seriously, this is all the same frigging game to me. Bugs in space or something? Jesus.

6) Cannon Fodder: Great game, and I love how Amiga Power got all the British WWII vets for putting that frigging poppy on their cover. Haw, haw, haw! This was probably the last RTS game I've enjoyed.

7) Age of Empires: Never installed it, actually.

8) Myth II: Pure shit. One of the worst games I've ever played. It got recalled because the first wave of boxes didn't contain any, you know, code that would actually install properly and run. Also, Bungie offered you ten bucks off if you sent them your WC2 or Starcraft CD so that they could melt them down. Way to go, Bungie, way to attempt to kill off the secondary entertainment software market! Fucking assholes.

Then, like three years passed....

9) Warcraft III. I don't get it. Was this ever fun?

10) Kohan's Gift. Aside from the fact that Dominion: Storm Over Gift III should have disabused everyone from EVER putting the word "Gift" in the title, this game got rave reviews from Computer Gaming Monthly. I bought it because it was like $9.49 at EB. I have installed it, and I did play the training mission. It bored me to tears. I do intend to actually play a "real" mission, but... well, I don't want to say it sucks or anything, but after Freedom Force, my tolerance for 2D games that do not feature a rotatable camera has really, really lessened. But hope isn't loss, I'm not going to say it sucks.

So there you have it. In 1996, Warcraft II (or C&C, if you played that first) had a great idea for a game that, frankly, has been driven to DEATH. Unlike the first person shooter, there just isn't enough appeal in graphics or story to get me to slag along with these things that are clones of one another. Some of them try to remove the resource gathering part, but that never works. I don't know if any of them remove the "start from scratch" part. So any way, if there is a "next big thing" in real time strategy, I sure do not know about it. I mean, Age of Mythology is out and all, but if you are sick of RTS is there anything there for you? I dunno.

(My opinion may differ if I played RTSs against live opponents. But I don't, so take that for what it's worth.)

Worm2 · Post by **Worm2** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:34 pm

It wouldn't man. The only real time strategy I've ever enjoyed was Corporate Machine ... and I have no idea how to play it and always lose.

Roody_Yogurt · Post by **Roody_Yogurt** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:34 pm

I bought one of the Warcraft games for my little brother (as I subject him to many games that I'm interested in but really don't have a desire to play it myself) but it didn't work on that really DOS-unfriendly computer.

He loved Lords of the Realm II, though, and is anxiously waiting the next one, and I think Stronghold, which he hasn't beaten yet (somewhere in the last couple years, he's decided that he has to play every game in it hardest difficulty level), has been a decent hold-me-over.

But yeah, those are start from scratch at every board kinds of games.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:39 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:1) Warcraft II: Didn't finish it, though, as I grew tired of having to completely create my structures and such for every mission.

2) Command & Conquer: Red Alert. Stopped playing it because I grew tired of having to completely create my structures and such for every mission.

3) Command & Conquer: Stopped playing it because I grew tired of having to completely create my structures and such for every mission.

Hee. Try playing Majesty. The most obnoxious game ever because, without fail, everytime your little "town" started to get interesting, the mission would end and you'd have to start right the fuck over.

5) Starcraft: OK, seriously, this is all the same frigging game to me. Bugs in space or something? Jesus.

9) Warcraft III. I don't get it. Was this ever fun?

Actually enjoyed both of these for a little bit. Really it was just that playing Starcraft as the Protoss was the only way I could ever beat any human opponent ever in an RTs on the one hand, and a certain visceral thrill in blighting the landscape as the Zerg/Undead on the other.

So there you have it. In 1996, Warcraft II (or C&C, if you played that first) had a great idea for a game that, frankly, has been driven to DEATH.

For shame, Jonsey. How are you, of all people, not mentioning Dune II?

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:05 am

For shame, Jonsey. How are you, of all people, not mentioning Dune II?

Dune II I've never played. It sort of got screwed, historically, much like how Ultima Underworld doesn't get enough credit for being the first 3D "shooter" game and all. (Not really a shooter, but you know what I mean.) Right, going off what I wrote it sounds like I mean to say that WC2 or C&C came up with the concept -- that line of mine should have instead said, "7 years ago everybody started playing either Warcraft II or Command & Conquer, and everybody loved it. The gameplay has really been driven to death since then."

I should also note that I can understand how there's a lot of appeal in playing a new RTS game against another human opponent, whether it's on Battlenet or just a LAN game. And that the FPS has stagnated as well (there is really no need to ever have a FPS game with a shotgun ever again, but I can't offhand think of one without it) but for some reason that doesn't affect me as much as the RTS, for a reason that I can't really explain.

Speaking of first person shooters, the whole "realistic weapon" thing is going to get incredibly old incredibly quickly. Max Payne, Mafia and Grand Theft Auto III have no futuristic weapons and that's not going to work if non sci-fi shooters start coming to the market in droves. Devs had better include stuff like caltrops, nunchucks, throwing stars -- something -- to mix it up a bit if they are not going to have things like the shrinking gun hanging about.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:10 am

Debaser wrote:Actually enjoyed both of these for a little bit. Really it was just that playing Starcraft as the Protoss was the only way I could ever beat any human opponent ever in an RTs on the one hand, and a certain visceral thrill in blighting the landscape as the Zerg/Undead on the other.

Starcraft giving us both the "Zerg Rush" concept as well as KEKEKE does give it a lot of karma points in the end. That is true. Few games affect the popular culture like that. OK, "Zerg Rush" is more unpopular culture, but still.

Worm2 · Post by **Worm2** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:56 am

Now that I think of it Seven Kingdoms is the only RTS I ever enjoyed.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:18 am

Hey, on a related note, has anyone round these parts ever actually played Homeworld? I bought it for around ten bucks on the advice of the entire internet, and found the tutorial really interesting, but I have, for whatever reason, never really been in the mood to sink my teeth into it. Is this like anybody's favorite game and, if so, could they really sell me on all its wonderful features that I'm being an imbecile for missing out on?

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:16 pm

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I've got Homeworld, but never installed it. It looks great, and is probably fun, but... well, back to that RTS thing again.

What would be neat would be if there was a game where you played the part of just one ship in an RTS world. Not really mission based -- more like X-COM where you don't know when missions are going to arise. You'd have parts where you are at the "base" or spaceport or whatever (sort of like how Starflight, badly, displayed) and you can risk running trade missions on your own if you like, with the possibility that you aren't around when you're expected to be there for a combat mission.

You'd also be able to form relationships with other members of the corps / rebellion / team. I'd say that it'd be a different from Elite in so much that you can't really get so far over to the other side of the galaxy that you can't make it back to be part of the central war or skirmish that you're in. I haven't played any Wing Commander since 3, so maybe the other ones are a lot like that, I don't know. (But I am thinking that for this hypothetical game none of the NPCs are "hard coded" into it, especially since any of them could die at any point. They would instead be generated.)

So there'd be:

o space combat
o some space trading & piracy
o stats building & ship upgrading as if it were an RPG
o the whole Japanese dating sim thing regarding how you make friends and allies
o maybe a mode like in X-COM where "the aliens attack the base" and you are fighting on foot as well?

Oh, and an alien that yells "it's a trap" at some point. In fact every game should have that, but sometimes it's just not feasible.

Worm2 · Post by **Worm2** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:10 pm

My main trouble is the resource gathering and building ... they ruin everything.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:20 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:What would be neat would be if there was a game where you played the part of just one ship in an RTS world. Not really mission based -- more like X-COM where you don't know when missions are going to arise. You'd have parts where you are at the "base" or spaceport or whatever (sort of like how Starflight, badly, displayed) and you can risk running trade missions on your own if you like, with the possibility that you aren't around when you're expected to be there for a combat mission.

You'd also be able to form relationships with other members of the corps / rebellion / team. I'd say that it'd be a different from Elite in so much that you can't really get so far over to the other side of the galaxy that you can't make it back to be part of the central war or skirmish that you're in. I haven't played any Wing Commander since 3, so maybe the other ones are a lot like that, I don't know. (But I am thinking that for this hypothetical game none of the NPCs are "hard coded" into it, especially since any of them could die at any point. They would instead be generated.)

So there'd be:

o space combat
o some space trading & piracy
o stats building & ship upgrading as if it were an RPG
o the whole Japanese dating sim thing regarding how you make friends and allies
o maybe a mode like in X-COM where "the aliens attack the base" and you are fighting on foot as well?

I actually had a bunch of notes drawn up for something along those lines once, a while back. Of course I can't program and never follow through on anything, so it was pretty much just a way to kill time between courses at my local community college, but eh.

I was thinking that you'd start out as a dude with a ship and you could eventually recruit these friends you'd made for your crew. So when you wanted a bigger ship, you'd have to have someone who could navigate and someone who could make sure the engines didn't blow up or whatever, and then you'd want like one guy to kill things during "planetside" missions. And, of course, your "guy" would only have the requisite skills to handle one or two of these tasks. And then you'd have to pay these guys, so there'd be a whole little economic model side to things.

Oh, and an alien that yells "it's a trap" at some point. In fact every game should have that, but sometimes it's just not feasible.

BATTRE RAPER!!!!!

I hate real-time strategy games.

I hate real-time strategy games.

Re: I hate real-time strategy games.

Re: I hate real-time strategy games.

Re: I hate real-time strategy games.