The XYZZY Awards

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

So I'm in a weird spot, because I am both part of this controversy (as Cryptozookeeper was nominated for six awards) and yet I possess strong feelings about all this that I would have no trouble sharing if I were not nominated.

But I guess the best place to start, to have some idea of what I am talking about, is to read this:

http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtop ... =23&t=4340

I'm curious as to what denizens here might think.

[pinback]

I'll share my feelings, and then you can point and jump up and down if you agree:

If the XYZZYs are left to community voting, and "ChoiceScript" games are included, then, well, this is what you're going to get.

So the first question is, should the be left to community voting? I say, yes. It defines the awards. You can have different awards that only let authors in. That's fine. XYZZYs are XYZZYs though.

And the second question is, should "ChoiceScript" game be included? Again, I say yes, because there have been, and will be "proper" IF entries which in fact offer the player even LESS of a chance for interaction than a CYOA book. Flack's HugoComp entry, "Spinning", would certainly not be out of place in a list of potential XYZZY nominees, and it offers no choice, and very little interaction at all.

So. I mean. This is how it is, and Robb's gonna get Robbed, and his five-year-long epic is gonna lose to a CYOA game.

But that's it. That's the XYZZYs. Want something else? Find a different set of awards.

[Flack]

IF and CYOA are two completely different types of games. Personally I think that the only awards CYOA games are writing/story ones. IF is not only about the story; from a writer's standpoint, it's about creating an entire virtual world and moving a player through it in a way that doesn't make them realize they are being moved through a virtual world.

The "voting down the line" is obviously not in the spirit of playing all the games and voting for the best one. It's supposed to be people voting for the best game, not a popularity contest. I mean, if that's the case let's enter a game next year and then offer people $1/vote via Twitter.

For what it's worth, I think Bruce's "Spinning" got robbed.

[pinback]

For what it's worth, I think Bruce's "Spinning" got robbed.

I knew I fucked that up. I've gone back and corrected it. I apologize.

I will do it via web form if necessary.

[Flack]

At least now I know how George Lucas feels. When asked about the Star Wars Holiday Special, Lucas once said, "If I had the time and a sledgehammer, I would track down every copy of that show and smash it."

I'd do the same with Spinning if I could.

[Roody_Yogurt]

Well, to be fair, "Spinning" was well-received by the ClubFloyd people, and several people said it was their favorite of the Hugo Comp games.

Anyhow, as far as the original topic goes, first off, ICJ imagines he might even be madder if he were an author who felt he was robbed a nomination because of the ChoiceScript games. Even as somebody who has never thought of any of his games as XYZZY "contenders", I find the whole deal rotten and the ruination of what had been a nice tradition.

Writing IF games is hard. Doing it correctly means providing sensible responses to hundreds of commands. IF is also the one hobby I have consistently enjoyed enough to seek out other enthusiasts years ago (and didn't grow tired of them, like I have with people with other shared-interests). I want to see new IF games, big and small. We're killing the medium that brought me together with these people if we judge these easier-to-write games in the same breath as we judge text games.

Unfortunately, I think all of the organizers are too worried about losing face and might not do anything about it. We've known for a day that at least one of the games isn't even finished (and therefore shouldn't be eligible), but so far, I seem to be the only person mentioning disqualification.

I'm starting to think that it's time to give up on the IF community altogether, as many have already done. Maybe they have run their course of usefulness, if they can't even support the people who have been writing the games that brought us together.

[RetroRomper]

I'm starting to think that it's time to give up on the IF community altogether, as many have already done. Maybe they have run their course of usefulness, if they can't even support the people who have been writing the games that brought us together.

ICJ is a relatively well known IF author, Jolt Country hosts the closest thing to an official Hugo resource that the internet has and JC is already a mini-coop of IF authors... If the XYZZY awards have fallen below the mark, perhaps you guys are in a position to start your own IF Comp?

[Flack]

I had been trying to organize my thoughts on this thing for two days now when I saw Robb's e-mail this morning that pretty much said what I was trying to say. I'll say it anyway, I guess.

I don't know all the players in this deal, but it seems to me like the fault lies in the event organizer. If people are cheating (ie: voting with fake accounts) then that would be one thing, but they're not. If the rules don't say anything about trumping for votes via Twitter, then the people are operating within the given rules, and it's up to the organizer to tweak those rules as needed.

Second (again, something Robb mentioned) is that CYOA and If are two completely different beasts. When I see the category for best NPC, I'm thinking about not just the character's dialog, but how were they programmed? What did they do? How did they interact with the world they were placed in?

While trying to explain this to my wife last night, I told her that writing CYOA is like painting a picture, while IF is more like creating an entire 3D world in CAD. When painting a picture, an artist must only worry about a single perspective; s/he can control the light and the shading. But when painting a picture of the Moon, you don't have to worry about what's on the other side. With IF (and I know I'm not telling you guys anything here), you have to not only create each object, but figure out how those objects work together. Will this fit inside that? Will that stack on top of this? Can this and that be combined to make something else altogether? Blow one or two of these things and the illusion is ruined. In a painting, you don't have to worry about what's going on in the next room ...

The whole "voting down the line" for a single game surely is against the spirit of fair competition. I'm guessing the people who voted have either played 1 game, or possibly none. I know that writing IF is an arcane hobby, but Jesus H., if you can't get people who are voting on text adventures to play your text adventures, then really, what would be the point? I know that I have no chance in winning the upcoming Spring Fling, but the thought of a dozen or two experienced people playing my feeble game is enough to make me do it. I'm pretty sure none of you are doing this for the money or the chicks.

The separating of IF and CYOA into different categories solves one of the two problems. Requiring people to play at least a few of the games before voting might curb the other.

I don't see any solution to the "getting money and chicks" dilemma. I'll work on that one.

[Roody_Yogurt]

The latest update, as far as I understand it, is that the XYZZY Awards will go to a panel-review type thing this year and that the ChoiceScript games are going to moved into their own category. I find this to be a reasonable compromise.

To be fair, the organizers realized the system was broke when they saw the results (sidenote: I'm not entirely sure who the organizers are anymore. I'm pretty sure there's this division-of-labor thing going on, but I'm not sure who is specifically in charge of what). The comp has basically run on good faith since it was conceived, just as several other IF community institutions have. I think the problems had been predicted before, but traditionally, so few people vote in the first round (they do come out for the second round, though) that I think the organizers thought adding more rules is kind of like strangling a kitten.

When the system was inevitably abused and we got what we got, I felt the organizers should have said, "aw hells no!" and thrown some shit out right then and there. Part of me thinks that this latest decision still treats the ChoiceScript community with much more respect than they deserve (judging by the words of ChoiceScript's author), but hey, the most important part of the problem has been resolved.

I'm starting to think that it's time to give up on the IF community altogether, as many have already done. Maybe they have run their course of usefulness, if they can't even support the people who have been writing the games that brought us together.

ICJ is a relatively well known IF author, Jolt Country hosts the closest thing to an official Hugo resource that the internet has and JC is already a mini-coop of IF authors... If the XYZZY awards have fallen below the mark, perhaps you guys are in a position to start your own IF Comp?

When it looked like the XYZZY Awards were going to be handled poorly, I was getting ready to cut my ties to the IF community completely, as it was getting to the point where I couldn't be incensed that some people didn't even see the problem. As I am not particularly noteworthy and Recchi's draw might be a bit polarizing, depending on whether people have a sense of humor or not, I was starting to ponder the chance of success of forming our own "secret cabal" (something the IF community has been accused of anyways) comprised of IF authors and enthusiasts who want to actually concentrate on our medium.

(I had to change that several times so I didn't sound too much like oh-no-we're-losing-our-cultural-identity guy like that Finnish child-killer.)

Luckily, based on recent decisions, I don't have to try to jumpstart a new secret community (although, ICJ, you might want to get that proposed telnet BBS going just in case). Still, if my problem is that I think some IF games have suffered a lack of attention due to our (the IF community) acceptance of CYOA, yeah, maybe the best route would be for us to come up with our own reward system, under either the joltcountry or Trotting Krips banner.

Throughout the year, if a game particularly notable comes out, we could brand it a Trotting Great Game (it's more likely we'd have to come up with a JC-based alternative; I think ICJ thinks RFTK as a time capsule at this point). This way, during a CYOA-friendly event like the IntroComp, we can still point out the stand-out IF games and try to give them the accolades they deserved but didn't get. I mean, I know a disgruntled author is going to be a disgruntled author, anyway, but still, maybe we could help. I don't want some of the things that happened in the last year to happen again.

At the end of the year, we could round-up the notable games we wrote about through the course of the year and do a "best of the year" thing. I dunno. I see how it could work.

The main drawback to this plan is that it'd require the heavy-lifters of the project to start playing a shitload of IF each year. First off, how does this sound to people? Anyone have ideas on how this could be handled reasonably?

[Flack]

As a very new member of the modern IF scene, I will tell you that at least for me, the most rewarding thing I've experienced so far has been reading the ClubFloyd transcript of people playing Hangar 22, hands down.

As a new author I didn't (and don't) expect to break on to the scene with some genre-busting, award-winning game, but to release a game and have nobody play it would have been awful. Transcripts work and are good, but there was something about the communication between different players that I read in that ClubFloyd transcript that was just really awesome. Seeing people type "haha" or guessing at what to do was really rewarding.

If you guys were going to put together some sort of new IF Institution of sorts, I would love to see one where every game gets played (if possible in a multi-user setting like IRC) and people get the results delivered to them.

Knowing that your game is going to be played and (hopefully enjoyed) by a veteran group of players would be enough (I would think) to encourage people to release new games.

When I first started getting into this Robb told me that for the most people only release games at comps because that's the only way you can guarantee someone will play you game and give you feedback. I didn't really get it then, but I do now.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

This thread here shows the decision that was made, and I am 100% fine with it:

http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtop ... =23&t=4361

[Tdarcos]

For what it's worth, I think Bruce's "Spinning" got robbed.

I don't. A game that consists of exactly 4 moves, ends with the player dying, has every move forced so that you have no alternative, represents something that isn't interactive fiction. I don't see where it deserves any awards.

What's the newness, the spark of creativity, the unusualness, the difference from anything else out there?

It might as well have been an automated PDF with a "more" button at the end of each page. Or a document displayed in MSDOS with the command TYPE spinning.txt | MORE . There is no interactivity, you might as well be reading a short story, and what is the point of doing it as an Interactive Fiction game?

[pinback]

For what it's worth, I think Bruce's "Spinning" got robbed.

I don't. A game that consists of exactly 4 moves, ends with the player dying, has every move forced so that you have no alternative, represents something that isn't interactive fiction. I don't see where it deserves any awards.

What's the newness, the spark of creativity, the unusualness, the difference from anything else out there?

It might as well have been an automated PDF with a "more" button at the end of each page. Or a document displayed in MSDOS with the command TYPE spinning.txt | MORE . There is no interactivity, you might as well be reading a short story, and what is the point of doing it as an Interactive Fiction game?

[Tdarcos]

I know that I have no chance in winning the upcoming Spring Fling, but the thought of a dozen or two experienced people playing my feeble game is enough to make me do it. I'm pretty sure none of you are doing this for the money or the chicks.

Uh, Flack, there is a distinct possibility someone here might be gay, and thus he'd be doing it for the money or the guys! (We generally don't have any women participating here AFAIK, otherwise my comment would be correct for that reason as well!)

I remember raising that issue when I announced I was quitting my job because of the extremely long commute, routinely causing me to be late and falling asleep on the job because I was so tired. The office gave me a going away party, and at the party, I was asked why, and I said I found someone I wanted to be with and had moved in with them. I was waiting for it, and someone asked me something like, "How long have you known her?" I responded with, "How do you know it's a woman?" And I got exactly the response I wanted: everyone broke up into hysterical laughter. Then I admitted that yes, it was a woman.

But some of the other people here might go "the other way" or might go both ways. You never can tell.

The separating of IF and CYOA into different categories solves one of the two problems. Requiring people to play at least a few of the games before voting might curb the other.

As they say in Chicago, "Vote early, vote often." Sure you can put a requirement in, but unless the requirement is self-enforcing, how do you prove that they followed the requirement? For example, some places have a residency requirement in order to vote or run for office. Unless the person can be proven to fail the requirement it's hard to challenge them on it. This happened in the case of Rahm Immanuel, one of Obama's staff who quit to run for - and win - the office of Mayor of Chicago. Opponents of his tried to argue to a court that while he was working for the White House he was not a resident of Chicago, despite the fact that the laws there say that taking employment to work for an elected official - since you have to be out of the area to do so, either in Springfield for a state official or Washington for a Federal one - does not affect your residency.

Unless you're going to require people take a "literacy test before voting", e.g. they're asked some questions about the other games, this is something that can be ignored in the breach if they want to.

I don't see any solution to the "getting money and chicks" dilemma. I'll work on that one.

Become a rock star, as Dire Straights pointed out, "Money for Nothing and your chicks for free."

[Tdarcos]

For what it's worth, I think Bruce's "Spinning" got robbed.

I don't. A game that consists of exactly 4 moves, ends with the player dying, has every move forced so that you have no alternative, represents something that isn't interactive fiction. I don't see where it deserves any awards.

What's the newness, the spark of creativity, the unusualness, the difference from anything else out there?

It might as well have been an automated PDF with a "more" button at the end of each page. Or a document displayed in MSDOS with the command TYPE spinning.txt | MORE . There is no interactivity, you might as well be reading a short story, and what is the point of doing it as an Interactive Fiction game?

Ben, exactly what is your malfunction? My comment is exactly on point and is relevant to the discussion; you toss it off with a sigh quote from Family Guy and give no comment as to why you disagree with me. That's basically sneering; you can't dispute my argument, so you just palm it off as it it doesn't matter.

If you have something to say, say it.

[Tdarcos]

I'm sort of in a bit of a quandary here as well. The "XYZZY Awards" seems to imply that it's an award for best computer-based interactive fiction. (For anyone old enough to remember where XYZZY came from. "This is 30XYZZY-AM, the most powerful radio station in the universe. 30Xyzzy-AM, Segerstrom Federal District, 1 Pluto!" No, not quite. )

Thus, I don't think a CYOA should be eligible because it's a printed novel, not a computer game.

Computer technology provides things you can't do on paper, and thus it's not the same thing. I remember reading a book like that, oh, maybe 30 or more years ago. You started on page 1, it had a story and then at the bottom it reached a decision point and gave you a set of choices, and you went from there. Very well thought out, is that there was no choice at any time that would go to page 2, so on page 2, it gave you an explanation that it's not a regular book you read from cover to cover, it's a game you branch through, so go back to page 1 and try again.

But I don't think a CYOA in book form is the sort of thing that is included in the same genre as a computer game.

[pinback]

I don't. A game that consists of exactly 4 moves, ends with the player dying, has every move forced so that you have no alternative, represents something that isn't interactive fiction. I don't see where it deserves any awards.

What's the newness, the spark of creativity, the unusualness, the difference from anything else out there?

It might as well have been an automated PDF with a "more" button at the end of each page. Or a document displayed in MSDOS with the command TYPE spinning.txt | MORE . There is no interactivity, you might as well be reading a short story, and what is the point of doing it as an Interactive Fiction game?

Ben, exactly what is your malfunction? My comment is exactly on point and is relevant to the discussion

No, your comment completely misses the point and is thoroughly irrelevant to the discussion. But if I explained Flack's post to you, then I'd have to explain every other goddamn post on this BBS to you, and I don't have that kind of time.

(Well, I do, but I'd rather spend it watching Day9 videos.)

[pinback]

Thus, I don't think a CYOA should be eligible because it's a printed novel, not a computer game.

Man, you are on a ROLL today.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

For what it's worth, I think Bruce's "Spinning" got robbed.

I don't. A game that consists of exactly 4 moves, ends with the player dying, has every move forced so that you have no alternative, represents something that isn't interactive fiction. I don't see where it deserves any awards.

Wait, did you play all the other Hugo Comp games? What did you think of Retro-Nemesis? Like Google says, in a totally cunty way, "This stuff matters."

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

(Voting is closed, so I feel all right in posting my thoughts about all this.)

And the second question is, should "ChoiceScript" game be included? Again, I say yes, because there have been, and will be "proper" IF entries which in fact offer the player even LESS of a chance for interaction than a CYOA book. Flack's HugoComp entry, "Spinning", would certainly not be out of place in a list of potential XYZZY nominees, and it offers no choice, and very little interaction at all.

You can type >xyzzy in Spinning, though. I'd say that should be the requirement (being able to type the thing the game is named for) but it goes beyond that.