Let us converse about VIDEO GAMES

[The Conversationalist]

Does anyone here have an X-BOX? Does anyone here have STAR WARS: KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC for the X-BOX? Is anyone else pissed off that it's not available for the PERSONAL COMPUTER yet?

So, LIONHEART is scheduled to ship two days after REPUBLIC: THE REVOLUTION, itself scheduled to ship a day after JOLT COUNTRY: THE VEGAS ADVENTURE. Reading which of the previous three facts gives you the LARGEST ERECTION?

[Lex]

No.

[Roody_Yogurt]

I have an X-Box but none of the rest of those questions apply to me.

[Worm]

Does anyone know what the name of that one purportedly RPG coming out for the X-Box is? They billed it as VERY non-linear and very real (Example they gave in game magazine: If you wound a child he will grow up to hate you and may even come after scar and all you to kill you.)

[Roody_Yogurt]

Ah, yeah, I remember reading about that and how if your character gets hurt, he'll keep the scars for the rest of his life, too. Don't remember what it was called. I figured it wasn't my type of game.

[Vermiculate Creature]

So, LIONHEART is scheduled to ship two days after REPUBLIC: THE REVOLUTION, itself scheduled to ship a day after JOLT COUNTRY: THE VEGAS ADVENTURE. Reading which of the previous three facts gives you the LARGEST ERECTION?

After seeing that Lionheart may be in the smallest margin like Fallotu I've ripped the crotch of my pants.

[Jack Straw]

I have KOTOR but have not tried it yet.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Does anyone know what the name of that one purportedly RPG coming out for the X-Box is? They billed it as VERY non-linear and very real (Example they gave in game magazine: If you wound a child he will grow up to hate you and may even come after scar and all you to kill you.)

Thaaaaaaaaaat'd be... Fable.

By the way, Lionhead Studios has one of the most annoying websites of all time. The entire thing is a fucking popup. No wonder Black & White was such a disappointment.

(Actually, I admit it has nothing to do with that, but still.)

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

So, LIONHEART is scheduled to ship two days after REPUBLIC: THE REVOLUTION, itself scheduled to ship a day after JOLT COUNTRY: THE VEGAS ADVENTURE. Reading which of the previous three facts gives you the LARGEST ERECTION?

Well, I'd have to say that --

Jesus, man! An erection?! What's wrong with you! Children come here!

[Jack Straw]

I didn't know this was an RPG! I'm rocking this tonight...

[Jack Straw]

BEST...RPG...EVER....

Well that may be stretching it but it's up there with Fallout and Xenosaga in my book.
I need to check out Neverwinter Nights now. Don't think I've played a Bioware RPG yet. They did what else? baldur's gate? Think I'll pass on that one.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

What are you proclaiming as the best RPG ever? That's a strong statement to make like that.

Baldur's Gate I isn't worth going back to. Baldur's Gate II probably gets my vote for "best RPG ever." Grabbing that and the Throne of Bhaal expansion is pure gaming bliss.

There are a couple reviews on caltrops.com for BG1 and BG2 that relate what it's like to play them in this day and age.

[Jack Straw]

I'll check it out. I tried Baldur's gate for Xbox for about 2 minutes tops and wasn't too impressed.

(my comment was regarding KOTOR)

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

That was, what, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for the X-box? That has little to do with the real Baldur's Gate games.

As for Bioware... Neverwinter Nights has the single worst concept of any game, ever. The developers are SMUG regarding the fact that you only can control one guy. They honestly prefer it that way. They're fucking hopeless. They have no idea what D&D is all about, and it's offensive that the D&D license is being wasted on games that have nothing to do with D&D.


(The BG games were made by Black Isle, as a point of clarification. I'd have to double-check, but I think that they are entering Blizzard and Infocom territory in that "never released a shitty game" area.)

[Jack Straw]

and it's offensive that the D&D license is being wasted on games that have nothing to do with D&D.

Heh, I guess the behind the scenes combat in KOTOR is D&D dice rolls. Alls I know is that Hutts are cool.

[bruce]

That was, what, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for the X-box? That has little to do with the real Baldur's Gate games.

As for Bioware... Neverwinter Nights has the single worst concept of any game, ever. The developers are SMUG regarding the fact that you only can control one guy. They honestly prefer it that way. They're fucking hopeless. They have no idea what D&D is all about, and it's offensive that the D&D license is being wasted on games that have nothing to do with D&D.

You need to put down the crack pipe.

NwN is just fine. The developers understand exactly what D&D is all about. D&D is about playing *a* character and slaying orcs and shit. *A* character. *ONE*. Live games where you play multiple characters aren't nearly as much fun, and you only ever do it when you want to play and there just aren't enough people.

I think you're a little fuzzy on the distinction between "CRPG" and "D&D". The CRPG is all about the tactical decisions you make on behalf of the whole party. In D&D you make your own tactical decisions, and everyone else makes his own too. Bioware has chosen to make their game more, not less, like D&D, at the expense of making it CRPG-like.

Now, single-player NwN *is* a little like gaming with a mildly retarded 12-year-old, in that the computer controlled NPCs tend to make very very bad decisions a lot.

I hear that multi-player is actually very much like playing real D&D. From the toolset it seems like it really should be....

Bruce

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

You need to put down the crack pipe.

Oh, it's fucking on now, sommbeeyatch.

NwN is just fine. The developers understand exactly what D&D is all about.

Let me first modify my statement -- NWN is possibly an all right game under the correct circumstances. Certainly, the fact that rags like PC Gamer and the like give out 97% for it, like they did Myst, Black and White and System Shock and Civ III and, basically, every other shitty game out there damns is in a way that I could never do. But my understanding is that the shit that's in the NWN is garbage, but some of the mods are OK-to-excellent. I personally would love to play the Tomb of Horrors mod, but more on why that can never happen in a bit.

D&D is about playing *a* character and slaying orcs and shit. *A* character. *ONE*.

I disagree. I can maybe buy the argument that D&D is about five people playing one character, but *a* person playing *a* character and that's it? Come on now, Maynard! When have you ever played a D&D game one-on-one, just you and the DM? Look, even if you have done so in the past, it's fantastically gay.

Live games where you play multiple characters aren't nearly as much fun, and you only ever do it when you want to play and there just aren't enough people.

That's my entire problem with NWN. Every other computer game that's come before has managed to put a decent single-player game inside the box, because one can handle playing six characters in a D&D video game where one cannot so easily do so in "real life." Shit, if I wanted to play D&D in real life I'd find a gaming group, get some nose plugs, and have at it. NWN completely ignores thirty years of advantages that the computer gives you. The dumb motherfuckers who came up with the game don't even give you the option of playing it both ways! What kind of retarded shit is that, Bruce?! How the hell do they justify this?

Actually, I know how they justify it. The Bioware guys are all hanging out on the forum at www.quartertothree.com. They will tell you all day long that NWN "is not Baldur's Gate." They will also get extremely snotty about this factoid, as if that is something to fucking be proud of or something.

I am going to go make an RPG in the next couple of months. I'll do one better than NWN, because in it you will be controlling no characters. You'll just be hitting the spacebar to initiate dice "rolling" procedures for things like still countrysides (if I get a 15 or above, the wind is going to thrust that bottle into a ditch!!!). Furthermore, when people tell me that the thing would be improved by simply having a play mode where you can control, say, one guy, I'll roll my eyes and condescendingly tell them that, look, this game is not Neverwinter Nights. It's not INTENDED to be. Pfffragh!

Defining yourself or your game or your record or whatever by what you are not is a sure sign that you've fucked up somewhere.

I think you're a little fuzzy on the distinction between "CRPG" and "D&D". The CRPG is all about the tactical decisions you make on behalf of the whole party. In D&D you make your own tactical decisions, and everyone else makes his own too.

This is great, except for the fact that it's incredibly unrealistic for someone in their late 20s or mid thirties to really play the game, then. Let's ignore the fact that the game DEMANDS that you play a multiclassed character, because otherwise you're essentially choosing between being able to cast a healing spell on yourself or pick a lock. A good D&D session has five or six people in it. To get going with NWN, you need to find, then, five other people that:

1) Bought into the highly flawed concept of the game.
2) Have decent computers, computers able to run the game.
3) Have decent CD-ROMs that can get past the SecuROM protection that the dumb fuckers at Interplay slapped on all of the disks
4) Each have the same patched version of the game.
5) Each have the same mods installed that everyone wants to play, and each have the same version of the mods, where applicable
6) Everyone's in roughly the same time zone with the same responsibilities. If you've got three guys who don't work for a living and three that do and some of them are in the Eastern Time Zone and some are on the Pacific rim, well, that's just bedlam.

I can see maybe those things happening if you require that three people team up. Three, yeah, I can see that. I played through much of the first BG game with two other pals. Course, it wouldn't fucking work in a piece of utter, total shit like NWN because, har har har, a game which is based entirely on the fact that different people fight, heal, steal and cast magic means that we've got to go pick three out of the four. Hope the healing guy has plenty of "disarm traps" spells kicking about.

I am intentionally ignoring the whole Gamespy thing. I absolutely refuse to play video games with idiot 10 year olds over the Internet. I don't even consider them people. For Bioware to think that's an option and that people will gladly do it -- which they do -- well, that just means that their idiocy didn't stop when they drew up the design doc.

I hear that multi-player is actually very much like playing real D&D. From the toolset it seems like it really should be....

That's just it. Maybe you can get six people to join in with you for a night or something, but regularly? I have been trying for two months to nail down a fantasy football draft date for my friends, and it gets more difficult every year as people get married, go on trips with their wives or, in other cases, common-law wives. There were literally two weekend days that didn't have shit going on with someone, and if I had been able to attend the Milker's wedding, even that day would be gone. It really gets ridiculous the older we all get. If Bioware is content on making games for bored teenagers who have nothing to do until middle school starts up again, well, power to them. "gg," I believe the kids like to say.

It just pisses me off because there's only a certain number of official D&D games that we are likely to see, and the non D&D games like Morrowind and Arx Fatalis and shit are all first-person, single-d00d RPGs which I am not always in the mood for.

[bruce]

I think we must be playing different single-player NWNs, then.

Because I made it through the first one--and had a good time--in single-player mode, playing a single-classed monk. NOTE: not a Tank Barbarian or Fighter, not a Wizard, a monk. She hits people. With her hands.

And I'm having a reasonably good time playing SoU, again, as a single-classed monk. WIth the Rogue sidekick. Who's fairly dumb, but you know what? You can give them orders, so it's kind of like controlling a two-character party.

I fail to see the problem with this game.

Oh, and, by the way: it <i>has</i> Save Anywhere.

Bruce

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

I think we must be playing different single-player NWNs, then. Because I made it through the first one--and had a good time--in single-player mode, playing a single-classed monk. NOTE: not a Tank Barbarian or Fighter, not a Wizard, a monk. She hits people. With her hands.

I would say that this is a flaw with NWN trying to be like D&D, then. YOUR GOOD TIME IS FLAWED, BRUEC. Well, no, not really, however --

Wizard, thieves, monks, illusionists and some of the other pussy classes only survive long enough in the pen and paper game because they either have a big, strong, handlebar-moustached fighter looking out for them, or else because the DM in the pen and paper game is a pussy who won't let anyone die. In the former case, this is great. To me, this is why D&D is even remotely interesting as a concept, the whole thing with teamwork and having each other's backs.

It's essentially what I like about D&D as opposed to sports -- if a guy is struggling in football or baseball, the guy either gets demoted to a Triple-A team where he can work on his swing in Cowhump, Colorado in front of 350 sloshed fans (in baseball) or he gets cut outright (in football). This same sort of thing happens when non-professionals play. I've been hitting like shit for three weeks now in softball. No matter how many jokes I crack in the dugout or how many "strategies" I were to come up with, and so forth, it doesn't matter: I played my way right out of consideration for the fall ball team a bunch of guys are getting together with this slump.

In pen and paper D&D (granted, I can only reliably speak of the game up to third edition, but I think my points are still valid) when a first-level wizard casts "magic missile" at something, he's not useless if he has a team around him. The player controlling this character can still provide input to decisions that the group makes, can still hang onto the torch, carry around the coin sack, etc. etc. etc. But there's no denying that his teammates pump it up for him. They aren't going to run him off the squad because they know that in time, if the character survives long enough, he'll be more powerful than 10 fighters put together.

This is a great dynamic! Where else does that kind of stuff go on? Not in any other sort of game that I've ever encountered. For as much time you spend in Dungeons and Dragons hurling the business end of a morning star at a minotaur's testicles, it really is a civilized game due to mutual dependencies, respect, having one another's back, and protection.

Neverwinter Nights would have you believe that the same wizard there doesn't need anybody. From first level all the way up to 100, the guy is a non-stop wrecking crew. And that's a bunch of shit. Or, more to the point, whatever it is, it's not any sort of D&D game I've ever played. And that's a Daggerfall kind of game, a game where you are alone in the world and have no friends and can't make any. Which is fine and everything, but if some guy happens to marry the most beautiful girl in the world with no plans on ever going to bed with her, well, he ought very well to kick off and give some other strapping young buck a try.

[Worm]

I need to check out Neverwinter Nights now. Don't think I've played a Bioware RPG yet. They did what else? baldur's gate? Think I'll pass on that one.

That's like passing the lemonade and drinking the posion.

[quote="Ice Cream "Should Give Up on LoEG" Jonsey"](The BG games were made by Black Isle, as a point of clarification. I'd have to double-check, but I think that they are entering Blizzard and Infocom territory in that "never released a shitty game" area.)[/quote]
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,7184/