Nobody cared about the Conf Battle Flag, until

[Tdarcos]

Nobody gave a tinker's damn about the fucking Confederate Battle Flag until some whack-job nutcase who decided to read the racist screeds of some white supremacist groups and claim to use it as his banner, shot up a church and killed 9 people.

Because it is now quite trendy and popular to be on the anti-flag batallion, people and companies who otherwise played it safe and didn't want to offend the reneck Confederate flag fringe, now feel the racially-motivated killings give them the safe haven to take a stand against this flag.

I remember pointing out to someone on Yahoo Answers probably more than two years ago, that her boyfriend having the confederate flag on the back of his truck promotes a very bad idea, the way the Nazis ruined the swastika - originally a pagan good luck symbol until the Nazis turned it around - and thus, seriously, anyone except a collector of flags who shows a Confederate flag is showing support for racial superiority, white race in particular, and should realize it's going to upset a lot of people. He has every right to display it on his truck, but it is still going to offend people.

So now it looks like those who kept silent over something they knew was disgusting have come out from under the rock from which they were hiding.

It's a shame that it took the deaths of nine people to give them some backbone for a change.

[CO]

Having lived in South Carolina during formative years in my childhood I can say confidently that nothing will happen there about this.

It takes a 2/3 majority in both S. Carolina legislature houses to "take the flag down" and there's no way it will happen. It's a sham. With both houses being 2/3 republican and plenty of those districts solidly so there isn't a chance in hell those racist goober fucks will actually "take it down". I'd say that no serious person in the news or politics thinks it will happen, it's a smokescreen to buy them time until the news dies down. Just like democrats' attempts to parlay previous shootings to get action on gun control, this fervor will do nothing but occupy a few news cycles.

Having lived in the south, I also will say that there is some percentage of people who aren't out and out racist and look at the confederate flag as representing the history of the south without actually advocating continuation of racial divide. I myself grew up watching Dukes of Hazzard and so for years associated it more with a fast orange car outrunning cops than a symbol advocating slavery.

[pinback]

It's also somewhat comical that the big discussion that came out of that massacre is "what do we do with this little colorful piece of fabric over there?"

Maybe the colorful piece of fabric isn't the core issue? Maybe?

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

I don't even know how it became about a flag. What the shit? Paul, great topic, by the way. You're helping the BBS.

I'm amazed by people that think that banning stuff is the way to solve things, but that's what people do.



But if that is a symbol of racism to someone, who am I to say otherwise? I think it's dumb when society changes to fit the easily offended but that's real easy for me to say since there was no flag for a country obsessed with enslaving arcade enthusiasts.

[pinback]

there was no flag for a country obsessed with enslaving arcade enthusiasts.

AMIRITE?!?! FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Good point. I consider this my flag anyway:

[Tdarcos]

Good point. I consider this my flag anyway:

I snuck on to the tour of the Pentagon about 25 years ago and the midshipman they had for a tour guard explained that the Snake flag almost became our national flag, where it would have had 13 rattles. Only problem was that they realized as more states were added, the snake's tail would get longer and longer, and other countries would see us as all rattle and no bite.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Ahhhaa, that's great. Making the snake bigger and bigger as we added states. I'm in favor of that flag as well.

They were gonna do a flag in the same style for Japan after World War II but have it show a pile of sheddings for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Tdarcos]

Ahhhaa, that's great. Making the snake bigger and bigger as we added states. I'm in favor of that flag as well.

They were gonna do a flag in the same style for Japan after World War II but have it show a pile of sheddings for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Somehow I think a better one would be a stereotypical Nissan hunched over his sword in seppuku, the blood streaming out his guts, with the legend in Japanese of "To our honored ancestors."

[Tdarcos]

If it was me, I'd try advertising for people to buy Confederate Battle Flags so that people could burn them. That way you sell all that merch, the customers destroy it, and you look patriotic!

Shortly after 9/11, flag stores had huge runs as people went out and bought both the U.S. flag and also the state flags of New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. Flag stores are pretty esoteric, so except for occasional bulk orders like Congress or a state legislature buying flags for constituents (the flag is put on the flagpole, hoisted for a moment, then lowered, and the person who asked gets a certificate saying it flew over the state or national capital building.) For a flag store to get so many customers that people are standing in line for two hours to get in indicates some very unusual event.

And on a related note, during the American Hostage Crisis, lots of Americans bought Iranian flags, for the obvious reason: to burn them.

While I disagree with the practice, I always felt the Supreme Court got it right when it struck down laws against burning the (U.S.) flag. Whether it's disrespectful or not, it is still a political statement. Beyond that, does anyone really believe the flag is so weak and so lacking in respect that it needs some special protection?

[AArdvark]

(Wipes sweat off forehead with arm)

Whew, glad they took that flag down so the crazies can't get us anymore.



THE
FEEL SAFER ALREADY
AARDVARK

[Tdarcos]

Whew, glad they took that flag down so the crazies can't get us anymore.

Yeak, now we can see flags from people who are normal, you know, like, Nazi sympathizers.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Ahhhaa, that's great. Making the snake bigger and bigger as we added states. I'm in favor of that flag as well.

They were gonna do a flag in the same style for Japan after World War II but have it show a pile of sheddings for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Somehow I think a better one would be a stereotypical Nissan hunched over his sword in seppuku, the blood streaming out his guts, with the legend in Japanese of "To our honored ancestors."

Well, you crossed the line. Now it's weird. Delete the BBS!

[Garth's Equipment Shop]

Slavery was established in America both in the north and the south under the United States stars and stripes flag 100 years before any Southerner every thought of secession.

Stars & Stripes national flag adopted by all states June 14, 1777

The new southern national flag with ring of 13 stars and three bars of red and white representing the fully established Confederate States of America was adopted November 28, 1861

The flag currently under attack from ignorant haters was actually the Confederate Battle Flag representing the military during the fratricidal war started by the Union tyrant Abraham Lincoln.

It represents the fight for freedom against imperialism. It did not and does not represent slavery. Our country was founded on a revolution to throw off the tyranny of British imperialism and form a separate nation.

"Resolved, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."

The right to secede was one of the most important rights established by our forefathers in the beginning. Everything else followed from that one unifying conviction.

The confederacy had every right to secede and would have been fully approved of by the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Lincoln and his radical Republicans and their fat cat supporters had no respect for states rights, they wanted to establish a central banking monopoly enforced by a centralized Federal government. Lincoln wasn't the heroic champion of Black Civil Rights that folks want to believe he was. He made it clear that he didn't believe in equal rights for Blacks and Whites. His position was that Blacks and Whites should both be free but could not live in harmony under a single government. They had to be free and independent of each other just as British and American had to be. Lincoln believed in the Colonization Society's efforts to repatriate Blacks to a new African-American colony named Liberia (Latin for Liberty). His only real issue with the South was that they didn't kiss his ass like he was some kind of royalty and bow down before the new resurgence of Federalism.

Lincoln's Republican Party didn't want independent states they wanted an empire just like the British one our forefathers fought to secede from. Southerners fought only one war under the stars and bars and that was one of defense of their own lands, homes and families.

How many foreign wars have been fought under the banner of the stars and stripes since then? And all were wars of aggression not defense, They are often disguised as liberation but always later are found out to have some hidden agenda having to do with corporate interests or some shady secret deal with a foreign power to serve Federal and corporate interests.

We The People are just expendable assets to them, we live only to send our children to die fighting their wars for profit or to defend some far away "ally" such as Israel who has never done a thing for us other than "accidentally" shoot down American aircraft or sink American ships and happily accept millions in foreign aid every year.

How about we tell the Cherokee people they must take down their traditional symbols and reminders of their proud heritage because we associate it all with barbaric scalping of the white man and his women and children. Is that fair? No, because that is all ancient history now and no one alive today can say they personally suffered on either side of those historical conflicts.

Of course you could take a page from the Jews and shout Oy Vey! And Never Forget! and all that whiney bullshit and maybe it will become a lucrative franchise for you, with many best selling books and films and what not. Or like the Blacks try to get reparations for something that happened to their ancestors hundreds of years ago. But honestly what self-respecting 21st century man wants to be that asshole?

[Tdarcos Legal D3epartment]

What5 a world; I get banned apparently for not following a rule that had been rescinded, then reimposed but not in enough time to let me know about it, but he gets to spew complete bullshit like the above and nobody cares. He seems to think that it's a good idea for some people to treat other people as cattle. And the issue is considerably more complicated than the wacked-out ideas you spout.

[Garth's Equipment Shop]

Slavery was established in America both in the north and the south under the United States stars and stripes flag 100 years before any Southerner every thought of secession.

The Stars & Stripes national flag was adopted by all states June 14, 1777

The new southern national flag with ring of 13 stars and three bars of red and white representing the fully established Confederate States of America was adopted November 28, 1861 almost a century later.

Of course you only hear one side of the story in government funded public schools because the victors write the history.

The flag currently under attack from ignorant haters was actually the Confederate Battle Flag representing the military during the fratricidal war started by the Union tyrant Abraham Lincoln.

As such that flag more than the official CSA flag will always be a flag of remembrance to the descendents of the men and women who lost their lives in their own neighborhoods and cities caught in that bloody fratricidal war.

The stars and bars represents the fight for freedom against imperialism. It did not and does not represent slavery. Our country was founded on a revolution to throw off the tyranny of British imperialism and form a separate nation.

"Resolved, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."

Honestly think about it. Who was actually sent off to fight and die? It was the fathers and sons of mostly poor families as always. Poor families who couldn't afford slaves. They were hard working, they did their own work, not slaves. And there were white slaves too, long before and during the era of Black slavery.

So clearly slavery would not have been enough to drive them to fight and die in one of the most horrific wars in history and even kill relatives sent by the Union to kill them. It had to be something much more important to them, something they believed history would one day vindicate them on.

The right to secede was one of the most important rights established by our forefathers in the beginning. Everything else followed from that one unifying conviction. The confederacy had every right to secede and would have been fully approved of by the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Lincoln and his radical Republicans and their fat cat supporters had no respect for states rights, they wanted to establish a central banking monopoly enforced by a centralized Federal government.

Lincoln wasn't the heroic champion of Black Civil Rights that the official government approved history books make him out to be. He made it clear that he didn't believe in equal rights for Blacks and Whites. His position was that Blacks and Whites should both be free but could not live in harmony under a single government. In case you hadn't noticed history since then certainly seems to have vindicated that belief of his.

Now if you think that sounds like evil hateful racism consider the fact that he was actually being quite generous and humane toward Blacks considering what he believed which was far more hateful and racist. In fact, Lincoln was a White Supremacist! Lincoln actually believed Whites were not
just incompatible. He actually believed Blacks were physically and mentally inferior. Shouldn't this be another reason to NOT worship before the alter of Lincoln and his Federal imperialism and his USA flag waving Republican warmongering? I think so.

Anyway in spite of his White Supremacist belief he did respect their life and liberty. He believed they had the same rights as any race and culture to exist and govern themselves the way they see fit. So we see that things aren't so black and white (pardon the pun) as they may first appear to be in the world of politically correct history, politics and sociology. One can be a White Supremacist like Lincoln and still be rational and compassionate and treat his "inferiors" fairly, respectfully and humanely in spite of his exaggerated sense of superiority.

Actually, it is quite natural for a people to feel their own race and culture are the best. Many Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans and so on believe their own race and culture is the best in the world. Yet few call them racists or haters or evil for thinking that way.

Here is what I believe about the races in case you were wondering and trust me, having lived most of my life in the south east this is what most southland traditionalists believe. Blacks are not racially inferior as a tiny and insignificant number of Klansmen and Neo-Nazis believe. But only a fool would ignore the cultural differences which set us apart.

Whether you believe its nature or nurture or some combination of both, or Natural Selection or Intelligent Design or both, or just some kind of persistent group psychology like Jung's collective unconscious, there is clearly something more going on to create these differences of culture within this one nation. Something beyond the level of the individual and beyond the level of the family and even
beyond the level of a single town or city. Some sort of sociobiological group dynamic is at play is how I and a lot of other folks would say it.

It is just a reality that anyone can see but many choose to ignore. That is real ignorance. And it only makes problems worse to ignore them. And ignoring differences is not accepting them, is not embracing them, is not celebrating them, and is not respecting them.

If we truly believe in celebrating differences and preserving diversity and respecting different cultures then the noble path is obviously to allow them to coexist side by side as separate independent interest groups and communities rather than trying to force them together or shame them into being more integrated and multicultural. All the racial strife since the Civil Rights movement began has been a direct result of efforts to force integration where people did not want to integrate. Once again it comes down to an issue of our most basic rights and freedoms. Americans don't like to be told what they can and can't do.


According to Lincoln (the anti-secessionist), Blacks and Whites had to be free and independent of each other just as British and American peoples had to be. Strange isn't it that he didn't extend that same respect to states. Lincoln believed in the Colonization Society's efforts to repatriate Blacks to a new African-American colony named Liberia (Latin for Liberty). His only real issue with the South was that they didn't kiss his ass like he was some kind of royalty and bow down before the new resurgence of Federalism.

Lincoln's Republican Party didn't want independent states they wanted an empire just like the British one our forefathers fought to secede from. Southerners fought only one war under the stars and bars and that was one of defense of their own lands, homes and families.

How many foreign wars have been fought under the banner of the stars and stripes since then? And all were wars of aggression not defense. The claim that we are "spreading democracy" is such a sham. For one thing going around the world conquering everyone different or anyone who doesn't do things our way is not what America's founding fathers had in mind when they fought for their own independence from British tyranny. Wars are often disguised as liberation but always later are found out to have some hidden agenda having to do with corporate interests or some shady secret deal with a foreign power to serve Federal or corporate interests.

We The People are just expendable assets to them, we live only to send our children to die fighting their wars for profit or to defend some far away "ally" such as Israel who has never done a thing for us other than "accidentally" shoot down American aircraft or sink American ships and happily accept millions in foreign aid every year.

How about we tell the Cherokee people they must take down their traditional symbols and reminders of their proud heritage because we associate it all with barbaric scalping of the white man and his women and children. Is that fair? No, because that is all ancient history now and no one alive today can say they personally suffered on either side of those historical conflicts.

Of course you could take a page from the Jews and shout Oy Vey! And Never Forget! and all that whiney bullshit and maybe it will become a lucrative franchise, with many best selling books and films and what not. Or like the Blacks try to get reparations for something that happened to their ancestors hundreds of years ago. But honestly what self-respecting 21st century man wants to be that asshole?

[Garth's Equipment Shop]

damn posting buttons... was previewing repeatedly in between edits and somehow ended up posting twice. Please delete the previous copy as it was one of the preedits before i finished writing. Thanks.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

What5 a world; I get banned apparently for not following a rule that had been rescinded, then reimposed but not in enough time to let me know about it, but he gets to spew complete bullshit like the above and nobody cares. He seems to think that it's a good idea for some people to treat other people as cattle. And the issue is considerably more complicated than the wacked-out ideas you spout.

Yeah, Garth makes a long post once in his 10 years of coming here and you're instantly redeemed. Peddle it elsewhere, Robinson, nobody here is buying it. Show a little respect and appreciation to the one man who's given you multiple places to be heard.

[Donald Ebinsen]

Having lived in the south, I also will say that there is some percentage of people who aren't out and out racist and look at the confederate flag as representing the history of the south without actually advocating continuation of racial divide.

Having lived in America, I also will say that there is some percentage of Christians who think God is love and kindness but fail to look at places in the Bible where God ordered the victors of various wars to kill all the men and women except they could keep the virgins to rape, or that when kids criticize a bald man the best response is to have bears tear the children into bloody bits.

Too many people uphold things that, if they knew what they really meant they'd either have to admit they were stupid, evil, or both.

[pinback]

Let's see, sophomoric anti-religion rants, pedantic legal advice, movie/song quotes...

Hey Donald, any chance you could record a video of yourself cooking?